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Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
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McAvennie_Offline
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PostPosted: 17-11-2010 12:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think you can compare going out for dinner/drinking and leaving three of your children alone in a building you cannot see from where you are with leaving a child outside a shop or "in a cornfield".

I do not know the details of how exactly the Bulger child went missing - and I personally would not leave a child unattended outside a shop - but certainly in the past it was accepted to leave prams, buggies at the door of smaller shops. Times and practices have changed since the early 90s.

And as for the other case, by "leaving several children unattended in a cornfield" do you mean "letting children outside to play"? That is a ludicrous twisting of circumstances to back up your argument.

There likely is a element of sniffiness at the preferential treatment and opinion of the McCann's actions. It doesn't alter the fact that there IS a different in their portrayal. If it had been a council estate family leaving their children in an apartment while they went out in Magaluf boozing in Happy Hour bars would they still be afforded the same reaction as the McCann family in the same situation, the difference being they were drinking wine in a Tapas bar not lager in a theme pub. I think you kid yourself if you believe that the non middle-class family would not have been pilloried.
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ramonmercadoOffline
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PostPosted: 17-11-2010 13:12    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Frankly, I'm pretty shocked and disgusted by the "ya boo, it serves the middle-class twats right" attitude being displayed by some of the posters on this thread.


I can assure that I'm not saying it served them right or that because they are middle class they ought to be attacked. I'm pointing out that the way they are being trated differs from the likely treatment of a chav couple.

Even when it came to dealing with the social services and CPS the McCanns were in a position to retain the type of barristers that chavs wouldn't have. Its hardly surprising thast the ss and cps backed off. Middle class doctors tend to have money and good contacts. No chav family would have had the servuces of a senior civil servant as a pr flak.
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Dr_Baltar
PostPosted: 17-11-2010 13:28    Post subject: Reply with quote

McAvennie_ wrote:
I don't think you can compare going out for dinner/drinking and leaving three of your children alone in a building you cannot see from where you are with leaving a child outside a shop or "in a cornfield".

I do not know the details of how exactly the Bulger child went missing - and I personally would not leave a child unattended outside a shop - but certainly in the past it was accepted to leave prams, buggies at the door of smaller shops. Times and practices have changed since the early 90s.

And as for the other case, by "leaving several children unattended in a cornfield" do you mean "letting children outside to play"? That is a ludicrous twisting of circumstances to back up your argument.


You could always try reading what I've written before criticising. I wasn't comparing what the McCanns did with what happened in the other two cases other than to point out that the McCanns were rightly investigated for neglect and Denise Bulger and Sarah Payne's grandparents were rightly not. Some may want to see the McCanns prosecuted for what they did. I agree (and always have) that leaving the kids alone was wrong, even selfish. I therefore have no argument to back up or circumstances to ludicrously twist. I'm just not sure what would be achieved by jailing them or taking their other two children into care.

Quote:
There likely is a element of sniffiness at the preferential treatment and opinion of the McCann's actions. It doesn't alter the fact that there IS a different in their portrayal. If it had been a council estate family leaving their children in an apartment while they went out in Magaluf boozing in Happy Hour bars would they still be afforded the same reaction as the McCann family in the same situation, the difference being they were drinking wine in a Tapas bar not lager in a theme pub. I think you kid yourself if you believe that the non middle-class family would not have been pilloried.


And I think you're kidding yourself if you deny there have been attacks on the McCanns for what they did. I can't understand why there's such a desire to treat this as some kind of class war rather than a tragic, horrific and salutory lesson. Maybe it's because I'm a parent. And maybe it's because I haven't already made up my mind that they're guilty of murder.


:::Edited for awful grammar:::


Last edited by Dr_Baltar on 17-11-2010 13:41; edited 1 time in total
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Dr_Baltar
PostPosted: 17-11-2010 13:40    Post subject: Reply with quote

ramonmercado wrote:

I can assure that I'm not saying it served them right or that because they are middle class they ought to be attacked. I'm pointing out that the way they are being trated differs from the likely treatment of a chav couple.

Even when it came to dealing with the social services and CPS the McCanns were in a position to retain the type of barristers that chavs wouldn't have. Its hardly surprising thast the ss and cps backed off. Middle class doctors tend to have money and good contacts. No chav family would have had the servuces of a senior civil servant as a pr flak.


I'm not indulging in speculation about how a less well-off couple might be treated by the press in similar circumstances nor how the Foreign Office under Blair and Brown would treat them, I'll leave that up to the class warriors. But what you're essentially saying here is that the McCanns are guilty of having decent jobs and a bit of money, that people like them have no right to hire the best lawyers they can or to use every means at their disposal to find their missing daughter.
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ramonmercadoOffline
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PostPosted: 17-11-2010 13:47    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr bal, you are obviously very angry. I think your anger would be more fruitfully directed at those who leave children unattended. I didn't do that, McAve didnt do that. We are not responsible for Madeline's disappearance.

The McCann doctors are responsible for that.
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Quake42Offline
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PostPosted: 17-11-2010 14:07    Post subject: Reply with quote

The McCanns are certainly living proof of the way the media builds people up only to knock them down.

In the first few days and weeks following Madeleine's disappearance, they were portrayed extremely sympathetically and those of us who harboured doubts about their story, or even just thought it had been unwise to leave young children alone in the apartment late at night, felt uncomfortable about voicing those views.

At some stage the media tired of the "McCanns as saints/innocent victims of a hopeless foreign police force" narrative and switched instead to the "McCanns as suspects/dreadful human beings" story and began printing various stories designed to point the finger, without saying so in as many words.

It's unsurprising that people have some doubts about the McCanns' version of events. Firstly, abductions by strangers from private dwellings are, thankfully, extremely rare. The McCanns did appear to change their story several times. Aspects of their behaviour immediately after the event (going to the gym/hairedresser/jetting around the world to meet VIPs) did not fit what one might expect from parents insane with fear and worry. Subsequent evidence of body fluids and the reaction of cadaver dogs to their car and apartment suggest something was amiss. It would be wrong to ignore all of this; however, it does remain circumstantial at most and I agree that some on this thread appear to be too quick to rush to judgement.


Quote:
I'm not indulging in speculation about how a less well-off couple might be treated by the press in similar circumstances nor how the Foreign Office under Blair and Brown would treat them, I'll leave that up to the class warriors. But what you're essentially saying here is that the McCanns are guilty of having decent jobs and a bit of money, that people like them have no right to hire the best lawyers they can or to use every means at their disposal to find their missing daughter.


I agree there has been an element of inverse snobbery about this. I also think that people are wrong to assume that the McCanns got an easier ride initially because they were "posh" or "middle class". I think it was because they were doctors specifically. I doubt the early coverage would have been as positive if they had been accountants, say, or lawyers, or indeed bankers.

*Edited for clarity
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Dr_Baltar
PostPosted: 17-11-2010 14:12    Post subject: Reply with quote

ramonmercado wrote:
Dr bal, you are obviously very angry. I think your anger would be more fruitfully directed at those who leave children unattended. I didn't do that, McAve didnt do that. We are not responsible for Madeline's disappearance.

The McCann doctors are responsible for that.


Am I? It takes an awful lot to get me very angry. This just isn't one of those situations (thankfully; it's not good for heart or soul).

The McCanns are not responsible for their child's disappearance (as far as we know), her abductor is. They are responsible for allowing a situation where the abductor could act undetected (for which, as I've stated numerous times, they are paying the ultimate price). The McCanns are not responsible for decent lawyers often costing a lot of money. The McCanns are not responsible for how the Foreign Office, Prime Minister or Chancellor chose to treat them. The McCanns are not responsible for how sections of the media chose to treat them.
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Quake42Offline
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PostPosted: 17-11-2010 14:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Even when it came to dealing with the social services and CPS the McCanns were in a position to retain the type of barristers that chavs wouldn't have. Its hardly surprising thast the ss and cps backed off.


But are you really suggesting that the other McCann children should have been taken into care, on the basis that they were left alone in a holiday apartment for a few hours? Do you really believe that would have been a sensible or proportionate response, or one which would have benefited the children in any way?
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Black River FallsOffline
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PostPosted: 17-11-2010 14:37    Post subject: Reply with quote

the alleged abductor isn;t responsible for anything either, as far as we know, we don;t even know that he/she/they does or doesn;t exist. but we are debating this to the point where as far as we know no-one is responsible for the McCann's daughters dissapperance even though someone clearly is, at least unless she wandered off by herself, without anyone seeing her, and ended up some where she couldn;t be found.

the McCann's aren;t responsible for the actions of the media, but i think there is a case to suggest that they have tried, perhaps successfully to some degree, to work the media, even if they've been worked in return, the whole thing from the first shout of "They've taken her" smacks of some kind of performance. Sad
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Dr_Baltar
PostPosted: 17-11-2010 15:05    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlackRiverFalls wrote:

the McCann's aren;t responsible for the actions of the media, but i think there is a case to suggest that they have tried, perhaps successfully to some degree, to work the media...


I would too if I thought it would help me find my child.
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ramonmercadoOffline
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PostPosted: 17-11-2010 22:14    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quake42 wrote:
Quote:
Even when it came to dealing with the social services and CPS the McCanns were in a position to retain the type of barristers that chavs wouldn't have. Its hardly surprising thast the ss and cps backed off.


But are you really suggesting that the other McCann children should have been taken into care, on the basis that they were left alone in a holiday apartment for a few hours? Do you really believe that would have been a sensible or proportionate response, or one which would have benefited the children in any way?


My point is that the McCanns were treated differently because of their connections and background. I really believe that things would have been different for chavish people.

Unless abuse is suspected, children are better off with their own family.

As for Dr Bal, the McCanns are responsible for Madelines disappearance. They went on the piss and left children on their own. No amount of spinning by you or them will change that.
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Black River FallsOffline
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PostPosted: 17-11-2010 22:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

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I would too if I thought it would help me find my child.


To what end is an entirely different matter.
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Quake42Offline
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PostPosted: 18-11-2010 13:40    Post subject: Reply with quote

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My point is that the McCanns were treated differently because of their connections and background. I really believe that things would have been different for chavish people.


You may be right - although I think there is something in Kondoru's comment that the reverse may sometimes be true - but as Dr B says it is hardly the fault of the McCanns if society is more forgiving of an attractive, professional couple than they might be of less articulate or mediagenic people.
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Quake42Offline
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PostPosted: 14-12-2010 00:03    Post subject: Reply with quote

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WikiLeaks cables: UK police 'developed' evidence against McCanns

British police helped to "develop evidence" against Madeleine McCann's parents as they were investigated by Portuguese police as formal suspects in the disappearance of their daughter, the US ambassador to Portugal was told by his British counterpart in September 2007.

The meeting between US ambassador Al Hoffman and the British ambassador, Alexander Wykeham Ellis, took place a fortnight after Kate and Gerry McCann were formally declared arguidos, or suspects, by Portuguese police. The McCanns have said that there was "absolutely no evidence to implicate them in Madeleine's disappearance whatsoever."

In a diplomatic cable marked confidential, the US ambassador reported: "Without delving into the details of the case, Ellis admitted that the British police had developed the current evidence against the McCann parents, and he stressed that authorities from both countries were working co-operatively."

The comments attributed to the ambassador appear to contradict the widespread perception at the time that Portuguese investigators were the driving force behind the treatment of the McCanns as suspects in the case.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/dec/13/wikileaks-madeleine-mccann-british-police
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rynner2Offline
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PostPosted: 18-02-2011 10:41    Post subject: Reply with quote

A new angle (if not a happy one):

Madeleine McCann's parents welcome US lead
Amateur investigator Marcelino Italiano believes Madeleine was snatched by a paedophile ring and taken to the US
guardian.co.uk, Friday 18 February 2011 09.51 GMT

The parents of Madeleine McCann have welcomed new information which suggests their missing daughter may be in America.
A spokesman for Kate and Gerry McCann said an investigator had done "absolutely the right thing" by going to police with his suspicions.

The Sun newspaper has quoted amateur investigator Marcelino Italiano as saying Madeleine had been snatched by an Algarve-based paedophile ring which had taken a dozen other children.
The Angolan-born nightclub bouncer said: "I know these people were involved and I have been told that Madeleine may now be in America."
He had handed a dossier including the names of two prominent Portuguese businessmen to police in Huelva, south-west Spain, the newspaper said.

A spokesman for the McCanns said: "As with any information concerning Madeleine, this man has done absolutely the right thing by going to the police in Spain.
"It is entirely appropriate that the police and any other law enforcement body now investigates these claims along with the private investigators currently searching for Madeleine. These investigations are now under way."

Madeleine was nearly four when she disappeared from her family's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz in the Algarve on 3 May 2007 as her parents dined with friends nearby.
Despite a massive police investigation and worldwide publicity, she has not been found.

The official Portuguese inquiry into Madeleine's disappearance was formally shelved in July 2008, although private detectives employed by the McCanns have continued the search.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/feb/18/madeleine-mccann-parents-us-lead
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