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Woolwich terror attack
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Quake42Offline
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PostPosted: 28-05-2013 16:00    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Read about this early this morning - it was then being claimed that the attack was an enraged response to the prison Imam's call for prayers to be said for Lee Rigby.


According to other reports the incident occurred in a kitchen, so I'm unconvinced by this detail.

A friend who does volunteer work has commented on the appeal of Islam to many (predominantly young and male) prisoners. Other religions don't seem to attract much interest.
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SpookdaddyOffline
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PostPosted: 28-05-2013 16:08    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quake42 wrote:
Quote:
Read about this early this morning - it was then being claimed that the attack was an enraged response to the prison Imam's call for prayers to be said for Lee Rigby.


According to other reports the incident occurred in a kitchen, so I'm unconvinced by this detail...


If there's some rule which states that an attack of any kind has to be an immediate response to whatever was going on at the precise time of the action, then it's a new one on me - and also, it seems fair to say, on a significant number of people who go around attacking others.
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SpookdaddyOffline
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PostPosted: 28-05-2013 18:01    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Help for Heroes rejects EDL donation cash

Armed forces charity says donations from EDL leader Tommy Robinson will be refunded in line with non-political stance

Forces charity Help for Heroes has announced that it will not accept any donations raised by the leader of the English Defence League Tommy Robinson.

The EDL leader started fundraising following last week's murder of soldier Lee Rigby in Woolwich, south-east London, but a spokesman for Help for Heroes said the Just Giving page set up by Robinson would be closed down and all donations would be refunded.

The charity will check for any further donations from EDL members and said they would not accept any donations from the group.

A Help for Heroes spokesman said: "He is the only one that has come to our attention but tonight we will be doing a cross-count to make sure that anyone else saying they are EDL will not be allowed to fundraise for us.

"It is the same for any political party, we do not allow political fundraising. As a charity, we are non-political."...etc here


Help for Heroes are following a universal policy on political donations - and, as such, Tommy Robinson's (or whatever else he's calling himself just now) hackneyed and oh so infuriatingly predictable waffle about 'political correctness gone mad' shouldn't really even be getting air-time; if he's as 'passionate' about the armed forces as he keeps banging on about then all he has to do is fundraise and donate privately and anonymously.

He also needs to be told that as a fashion statement wearing camo down the pub or out shopping on Saturday afternoon is okay (never more than one item at a time though love, or you start looking a bit nuts), but wearing it at a political rally in a deliberate attempt to identify yourself with the Armed Forces just makes you look like a pathetic wannabe twat - not least to the people you are trying to identify with. Even if some of the audience might be sympathetic to your message, try that one on and you really won't need to be anywhere near Catterick or Bastion to hear the hoots of derision. Adam Walker of the BNP did the same a couple of years ago and made himself look a complete idiot - and he had some service time behind him.

For what it's worth, as someone who's become generally cynical about large charities I have a lot of time for Help for Heroes. My cousin had a pretty serious row with an IED a couple of years ago - collapsed in Helmand and woke up in Selly Oak with nothing but a lot of stiches. The Help for Heroes guy was there as soon as he started making sense again, asked him for a shopping list and was back within the hour - trainers, sweatshirt, trousers, and all the other bits and pieces no-one realises you don't have because they're all bundled up and gathering sand thousands of miles away. They also asked him who else he wanted contacted - the Army do the best they can but don't have the resources to do anything much beyond immediate next of kin. Help for Heroes had someone go round and sit with both his aunts and his girlfriend and even knocked on a couple of his mates doors to let them know how he was doing.

At the time I was really impressed - I hope they're still as effective, and remain so.
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liveinabin1Offline
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PostPosted: 28-05-2013 21:36    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just love this story, what a great way to deal with these idiots.
Quote:
York Mosque praised for offering EDL protesters tea

Father Tim Jones said "the world can learn" from what happened outside the mosque

A mosque has been praised for serving tea and biscuits to English Defence League supporters after the far-right group arranged a demonstration there.

About six people turned up to protest at the mosque in Bull Lane, York, on Sunday and were invited inside to play football with worshippers.

More than 100 supporters of the mosque had gone there after learning of the planned EDL protest.

Archbishop of York Dr John Sentamu said the mosque's response was "fantastic".

He said: "Tea, biscuits, and football are a great and typically Yorkshire combination when it comes to disarming hostile and extremist views."

'Proud moment'
Father Tim Jones, who went to the Bull Lane mosque, which is situated in his parish, said: "I've always known they were intelligent and compassionate people and I think this has demonstrated the extent to which they are people of courage - certainly physical courage and also a high degree of moral courage.

"I think the world can learn from what happened outside that ramshackle little mosque on Sunday."

Hull Road ward councillor Neil Barnes said it had been a "proud moment for York".

He said: "I don't think I'll ever forget the day that the York Mosque tackled anger and hatred with peace and warmth - and I won't forget the sight of a Muslim offering a protester tea and biscuits with absolute sincerity."

Fears over a demonstration grew after Yorkshire EDL Scarborough Division posted a message on its Facebook page calling for supporters to gather outside the mosque.

Imam Abid Salik said: "We did have a few people who did come to protest but when they came some of the members of the mosque went over and they engaged in a conversation.

"Some people went over with cups of tea and biscuits, they were talking for about 30 or 40 minutes and then they came inside, which was a really, really beautiful thing."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-22689552
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SpookdaddyOffline
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PostPosted: 28-05-2013 22:10    Post subject: Reply with quote

liveinabin1 wrote:
I just love this story, what a great way to deal with these idiots.
Quote:
York Mosque praised for offering EDL protesters tea...


As far as I'm concerned anyone who deploys tea in response to a potentially hazardous situation is British, whether they like it or not.

Sane stuff.

(It's just struck me how such reasonable and level-headed behaviour actually appears to have decreased in inverse proportion to the rapid growth in popularity of the now bloody ubiquitous 'Keep Calm and Carry On' brand.)
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CochiseOffline
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PostPosted: 29-05-2013 06:47    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shock! Horror! Sensible article in the Daily Mail:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2332320/ANDREW-ALEXANDER-Foreign-wars-chilling-legacy-hate.html
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Quake42Offline
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PostPosted: 29-05-2013 09:20    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Shock! Horror! Sensible article in the Daily Mail:


Hmm, I don't know. It seems to be continuing to propogate the myth that Islamists want to kill us because of British/Western interventions in the Middle East. In fact this is simply a useful tool to sound slightly less mad than they would otherwise. Let's not forget that Islamists have been quite happy to murder innocent people over:

- a literary novel
- some cartoons in a Danish newspaper
- a crap film on YouTube
- a teddy bear's name

It really is time to confront this bonkers ideology head on and stop pretending tyat it's somehow all our fault. It isn't.
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McAvennie_Offline
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PostPosted: 29-05-2013 09:31    Post subject: Reply with quote

French attack suspect captured...

Quote:
(Reuters) - French authorities arrested on Wednesday a man suspected of stabbing a French soldier in an attack that took place days after the May 22 killing of a British serviceman in London by men shouting Islamist slogans.

"He was known (to police) but we cannot speak of radical Islamism," Interior Minister Manuel Valls told iTele television.

"I remain very cautious," he added.

The 22-year-old suspect, known to police for crimes such as theft and possession of firearms, was arrested in a Paris suburb early on Wednesday after being identified through fingerprints, a police source told Reuters.

French police have said the knife attack on May 25 may have been inspired by the murder of a serviceman in London three days earlier by two men shouting Islamist slogans.

The 23-year-old French soldier was attacked from behind with a knife or box-cutter while patrolling the La Defense business neighbourhood west of Paris. The soldier was released from the hospital on Monday.


http://in.reuters.com/article/2013/05/29/france-stabbing-idINDEE94S03N20130529
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liveinabin1Offline
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PostPosted: 29-05-2013 10:20    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spookdaddy wrote:
liveinabin1 wrote:
I just love this story, what a great way to deal with these idiots.
Quote:
York Mosque praised for offering EDL protesters tea...


As far as I'm concerned anyone who deploys tea in response to a potentially hazardous situation is British, whether they like it or not.

Sane stuff.

(It's just struck me how such reasonable and level-headed behaviour actually appears to have decreased in inverse proportion to the rapid growth in popularity of the now bloody ubiquitous 'Keep Calm and Carry On' brand.)


Exactly, tea will fix all if you are British. We defined an 'English Minute' a while ago as the length of time between someone dying, or getting other dreadful news, and the kettle going on.
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OneWingedBirdOffline
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PostPosted: 29-05-2013 17:27    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As far as I'm concerned anyone who deploys tea in response to a potentially hazardous situation is British, whether they like it or not.


Laughing
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CochiseOffline
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PostPosted: 30-05-2013 06:56    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quake42 wrote:
Quote:
Shock! Horror! Sensible article in the Daily Mail:


Hmm, I don't know. It seems to be continuing to propogate the myth that Islamists want to kill us because of British/Western interventions in the Middle East. In fact this is simply a useful tool to sound slightly less mad than they would otherwise. Let's not forget that Islamists have been quite happy to murder innocent people over:

- a literary novel
- some cartoons in a Danish newspaper
- a crap film on YouTube
- a teddy bear's name

It really is time to confront this bonkers ideology head on and stop pretending tyat it's somehow all our fault. It isn't.


What you say is true, but I can't imagine that the foreign policy we have pursued over the last dozen years or so can have failed to have an effect. Life is now so complex that any article that focuses on a particular issue is going to be incomplete.

The problem here is to me twofold:

a) the ideology in question is strongly allied to a particular religion, and for some reason this prevents the normal preventative action that would be taken if other religions were involved. Issuing death threats because someone writes a book you don't like is so grotesque by our normal standards surely it should have acted as a red flag?

b) There are parts of the world where this ideology is the norm. Almost by definition, any direct physical interference from outside is going to reinforce the siege mindset of its adherence.

Since we in the west cannot use genocide, then the only way to discredit this ideology is to firstly make the Western lifestyle desirable, and secondly make it clear that in order to experience the Western lifestyle , you must make your ideology subordinate to that of the community you join if you expect to be treated as equal. The majority of other religions have come to accept that, whatever their faults in the past. This one apparently has not.

My views on this are influenced by my wife's close friendship with a lady who herself had decided not to be Muslim, whose Muslim parents repeatedly tried to arrange marriage for her, who threatened her, and against whom the authorities would take no steps. The lady in question eventually went into hiding and we never knew what became of her. This was back in the 80's. If we accept this and other medieval practices by members of this religion, then we can hardly wonder that our wider society itself slips back to primitive attitudes.
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Quake42Offline
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PostPosted: 30-05-2013 09:30    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
the ideology in question is strongly allied to a particular religion, and for some reason this prevents the normal preventative action that would be taken if other religions were involved. Issuing death threats because someone writes a book you don't like is so grotesque by our normal standards surely it should have acted as a red flag?



Well, you would have thought so but the fantasy that everything was hunky-sory pre-Afghan intervention continues to be parroted at every opportunity. I was arguing with an SWP-type on another message board yesterday who flatly refused to accept that jihadi violence ever occurred pre 2001 even when multiple examples were pointed out.

Quote:
Since we in the west cannot use genocide, then the only way to discredit this ideology is to firstly make the Western lifestyle desirable, and secondly make it clear that in order to experience the Western lifestyle , you must make your ideology subordinate to that of the community you join if you expect to be treated as equal. The majority of other religions have come to accept that, whatever their faults in the past. This one apparently has not.


Couldn't agree more but I think the difficulty is that Islam stresses the superiority of Muslims over all others to a far greater extent than other religions. Observant Muslims are actively encouraged to look down on those of other faiths and none which partially explains the tendency for Muslim communities in the West to isolate themselves from the host culture far more than recent immigrants from other faiths and cultures.

The belief that Islamic society is inherently superior to all others sits uncomfortably with the comparative strength of the secular West's economies and culture. It's impossible for observant Muslims to acknowledge that tha failure of much of the Islamic world might be down to the continued blind adherence to a medieval theology and so a form of rage sets in which is directed towards the West in general and America and Israel in particular. This leads to hostility and insane consiracy theories at best and the sort of mindless violence we saw in Woolwich last week at worst.

Quote:
My views on this are influenced by my wife's close friendship with a lady who herself had decided not to be Muslim, whose Muslim parents repeatedly tried to arrange marriage for her, who threatened her, and against whom the authorities would take no steps. The lady in question eventually went into hiding and we never knew what became of her. This was back in the 80's.


I'm sorry to hear about your wife's friend and I hope she's okay somewhere. It infuriates me that the authorities will not take action against serious lawbreaking for fear of upsetting some sort of of cultural applecart. I've commented on this on the street grooming thread but it's the same story with honour killings, forced marriage and FGM. The law should be enforced equally without regard for "community cohesion" or other buzzwords and the victims of these medieval attitudes given proper protection.
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MadameTrunkoOffline
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PostPosted: 18-12-2013 13:48    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like conspiracy theorists are still going at this one. Here's a video from a few weeks back claiming that blood on the pavement disappears between photographs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ_XvD2_n5s&
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SpookdaddyOffline
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PostPosted: 18-12-2013 17:21    Post subject: Reply with quote

MadameTrunko wrote:
Looks like conspiracy theorists are still going at this one. Here's a video from a few weeks back claiming that blood on the pavement disappears between photographs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ_XvD2_n5s&


I think there is blood in the contested images - if you play with the contrast, saturation and brightness settings you can see a discoloured patch just about where it should be. (For instance at 5:15. Also, I thinks it may be just about visible just below the rear hem of the gilet being worn by the standing woman at 4:41). And blood is of course a liquid which, depending on volume and the physical features of the surface upon which it is poured, flows whichever way it can until it congeals - there's absolutely no logical reason the two patterns have to match.

I suspect the issue is down to camera type, picture quality and exposure, and the angle the images were taken from - but, given that the guy thinks Lee Rigby didn't exist, knows with 'some certainty that NO children died at Sandy Hook', and that 'most of' the plane passengers at 911 were photoshopped (who the poor unlucky few were, I'm not sure), I suspect he wouldn't be at all interested in so mundane an answer.

(And - these people - if their conclusions are so bloody self-evident, why do they always cover their efforts in huge animated prompts and moving arrows?)
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MythopoeikaOffline
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PostPosted: 18-12-2013 19:47    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spookdaddy wrote:
(And - these people - if their conclusions are so bloody self-evident, why do they always cover their efforts in huge animated prompts and moving arrows?)


Yeah, I see crap like that all over Youtube and it makes me turn off.
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