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MythopoeikaOffline
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PostPosted: 09-12-2013 16:05    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another thought occurred to me - if we end up in a post-apocalyptic future where all the lights go out, guess what? Bye-bye electronic currency.
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Heckler20Offline
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PostPosted: 09-12-2013 16:34    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mythopoeika wrote:
Another thought occurred to me - if we end up in a post-apocalyptic future where all the lights go out, guess what? Bye-bye electronic currency.


Mind you to be fair if the world's population is reduced to medieval levels then bye bye paper money and when everyone is starving, you can't eat gold.

Buy carrots!
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MythopoeikaOffline
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PostPosted: 09-12-2013 17:31    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heckler20 wrote:
Mythopoeika wrote:
Another thought occurred to me - if we end up in a post-apocalyptic future where all the lights go out, guess what? Bye-bye electronic currency.


Mind you to be fair if the world's population is reduced to medieval levels then bye bye paper money and when everyone is starving, you can't eat gold.

Buy carrots!


But in the Middle Ages, gold and silver were the accepted currency...that's my point.
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IamSundogOffline
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PostPosted: 09-12-2013 21:13    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mythopoeika wrote:
What would you suggest as a possible reliable alternative to gold, silver or Bitcoin?

Arable land.
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Heckler20Offline
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PostPosted: 10-12-2013 09:49    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mythopoeika wrote:

But in the Middle Ages, gold and silver were the accepted currency...that's my point.


That assumes a working economy where rare metals have value and can be exchanged for goods and services, we can't assume in a post apocalyptic world that it could. I would suggest that it's more likely that a more informal barter system would be the model.

'Master Blaster runs Barter Town' etc.
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rasputinOffline
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PostPosted: 13-12-2013 16:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bitcoin is not a "scam" and if it were then all fiat currencies are scams. Fiat currencies (dollar, pound etc) are no longer backed by gold. They can be printed to oblivion (as is happening now via QE) and created out of thin air (fractional reserve system). Since most currencies are no longer backed by gold, fiat is mostly worthless except for the value placed on it as a unit of exchange.

Bitcoin's value is a) ideological and b) technological. It has a finite amount (21 million) so cannot be printed or manipulated as governments are currently doing. Printing money creates inflation and the only people to have really benefited from QE are the bankers who have more money to speculate with. Heads I win, tails you lose.

Bitcoin's value can also be found in it's mining difficulty which has increased as the amount of bitcoins still to be mined reduces, making them more scarce and therefore more valuable. You (or your computer) has to work to get bitcoins (or pay the current market price).

Bitcoins are a means to change political and social paradigms since the people who control the money supply (the government/bankers) control the power and bitcoin can disrupt this (this is why JP Morgan are trying to destroy bitcoin with their rival via a patent).
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kamalktkOffline
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PostPosted: 13-12-2013 16:42    Post subject: Reply with quote

rasputin wrote:
They can be printed to oblivion (as is happening now via QE)

This often gets used as an example, often as 'created by a few keystrokes' as I see it posted on another site. I'd like to point out that the reverse can also happen, the fiat currencies can also be restricted 'by a few keystrokes'. Not that it often happens, but something the 'print endlessly' side never seems to acknowledge the possibility of.
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rasputinOffline
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PostPosted: 14-12-2013 17:22    Post subject: Reply with quote

kamalktk wrote:
rasputin wrote:
They can be printed to oblivion (as is happening now via QE)

This often gets used as an example, often as 'created by a few keystrokes' as I see it posted on another site. I'd like to point out that the reverse can also happen, the fiat currencies can also be restricted 'by a few keystrokes'. Not that it often happens, but something the 'print endlessly' side never seems to acknowledge the possibility of.


But the problem is that at the moment governments ARE printing to oblivion. They are doing this because they have no other choice in order to keep the whole ponzi system going. The ponzi system exists and was allowed to exist precisely because of the many flaws of fiat and its ability to be manipulated by those in power. Fiat has been appropriated by the bankers, big government and corporations. Look at the USA at the moment. Bernanke is printing and printing. When he hints at tapering, the bond market reacts and Bernanke retreats on his threat to taper because he knows that tapering = highger interest rates and the US economy is so fucked it would default on higher interest rates. The whole debt has built up precisely because fiat has the ability to be printed and not backed by anything. Bitcoin, on the otherhand cannot be manipulated in this way. Sure bitcoin probably has flaws but it's appeal to libertarians lies in the fact that it has no central authority, cannot be manipulated in the same way as fiat and allows anonymity and a break from state control. It gives power back to the individual and away from the statists. It is the ultimate libertarian currency.

Fiat currencies have been appropriated by the people who want total power and control. That is also why they want to do away with cash, because that is also a way in which they do not have so much control as cash is hard to trace and anonymous. Bitcoin is a digital form of cash and this is the worst nightmare of the bankers/big government as it is something that they cannot easily control and manipulate.
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kamalktkOffline
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PostPosted: 14-12-2013 18:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

rasputin wrote:
Sure bitcoin probably has flaws but it's appeal to libertarians lies in the fact that it has no central authority, cannot be manipulated in the same way as fiat and allows anonymity and a break from state control.

This is another misunderstanding, as any individual or group that controls >50% of the blockchain functionally controls bitcoin. Bitcoin claims that's not really a problem here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Weaknesses.

But if you look here: https://blockchain.info/pools you can see that control of the bitcoin currently requires collusion between only two groups. It's been two groups to control for at least 18 months or so. Ghash.io and BTC Guild's share has actually been increasing. Ghash.io is large enough that they could collude with the third and fourth largest groups and control >50%.

As for anonymity, it doesn't have that either. Bitcoin's organization themselves point out that it's not https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Anonymity. The lack of anonymity has actually created problems for bitcoin thieves, like this one http://www.businessinsider.com/a-thief-is-attempting-to-hide-100-million-in-stolen-bitcoins-and-you-can-watch-it-live-right-now-2013-12. Fiat cash is much more anonymous, as you generally can't look at the entire transaction history to get information on it's flow.
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MythopoeikaOffline
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PostPosted: 14-12-2013 18:45    Post subject: Reply with quote

rasputin wrote:
Fiat currencies have been appropriated by the people who want total power and control. That is also why they want to do away with cash, because that is also a way in which they do not have so much control as cash is hard to trace and anonymous.


Yeah, this has been concerning me lately. All this talk by the banks about doing away with cheques, then a lot of organisations making it difficult to perform cash transactions, then a lot of talk about 'doing away with cash now that we have the technology', and so on.
Cash is currently the best way to make micro-payments, and it lubricates the wheels of the economy. It's the only way some people can make a living at all.
Get rid of cash, and a lot of people will become a lot poorer.
Unless it ends up like Star Trek, the future is becoming a darker place.
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CochiseOffline
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PostPosted: 15-12-2013 12:22    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mythopoeika wrote:
rasputin wrote:
Fiat currencies have been appropriated by the people who want total power and control. That is also why they want to do away with cash, because that is also a way in which they do not have so much control as cash is hard to trace and anonymous.


Yeah, this has been concerning me lately. All this talk by the banks about doing away with cheques, then a lot of organisations making it difficult to perform cash transactions, then a lot of talk about 'doing away with cash now that we have the technology', and so on.
Cash is currently the best way to make micro-payments, and it lubricates the wheels of the economy. It's the only way some people can make a living at all.
Get rid of cash, and a lot of people will become a lot poorer.
Unless it ends up like Star Trek, the future is becoming a darker place.


It's all about control. Western Civilisation has always required a certain amount of backsliding to survive, to prevent it becoming too onerous. That's why we make heroes out of bank robbers and bootleggers, and most people see nothing wrong with a bit of barter or cash in hand. But we now have as the PTB's total obsessives who cannot bear the thought of anyone mocking their rules, no matter how slightly, or of having any personally controlled alternatives to dependence on them.

Hence property rights, cash - if you keep cash in large quantities in the house you are likely to have it arbitrarily seized, and if its ever been through the hands of anyone who has used drugs you won't get it back - even the right to express dissent peacefully, are all under threat.

The eventual result can only be one of two things - a total police state with informers and all the paraphernalia a la 1984 or North Korea or Iran or USSR, or bloody revolution and anarchy.

Or we could wake up and stop voting for the same corrupt maniacs time after time. I'm not holding my breath.
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rasputinOffline
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PostPosted: 16-12-2013 19:18    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bitcoin Inventor Satoshi Nakamoto is Anonymous-style Cell from Europe;

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/530480/20131216/bitcoin-creator-satoshi-nakamoto-value-digital-currency.htm
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MonstrosaOffline
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PostPosted: 18-12-2013 18:18    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bitcoin sinks after China restricts yuan exchanges
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kamalktkOffline
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PostPosted: 25-02-2014 17:28    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mt. Gox, the Magic The Gathering Online eXchange turned bitcoin exchange, is no more. Bitcoin prices drop sharply on the news.
http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-mt-gox-collapse-threatens-to-bring-down-bitcoin-economy-20140225,0,2841826.story#axzz2uM6UNGx5

"The Bitcoins apparently lost by Mt. Gox account for about 6% of all Bitcoins in circulation. If they are lost, it's unclear who may control them."
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Anome_Offline
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PostPosted: 26-02-2014 08:59    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you wanted some, buy now.

Or just get into mining Dogecoin like everyone else has.
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