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Freedom of Thought
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JonfairwayOffline
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PostPosted: 26-02-2014 13:21    Post subject: Freedom of Thought Reply with quote

I have been thinking about this for some time now.... the fact from the day we are born we are restricted from free thinking by the use of religious dogma and faith.... we are molded to the way we think.... controlled.... this is not an accident...

I think this is the reason we as the Humans on this planet will never get to a single point in our , shall i call it evolution.... where we do not kill each other. do not wreck what we live in... do not care about others....

don't get me wrong... there are people who can think like this all the time...
they have been to university and now have this ability.... some were never controlled like that from day one..... however they are few in real terms across the entire global population....

and the fact these .... i will call them enlightened..... cannot bring about change on a scale to benefit the greater good for all is very upsetting for them..
frustrated with what they read and see....
they see death. conflict, and the eventual demise of the planet as we know it...

but then..... why would the "people" pulling the strings of the puppets want free thinking
want it good for the greater good ?

They have an agenda to keep conflict... to keep the people in the dark....
To keep Religious dogma... to dumb down...

There are so many examples of this going on it cannot be a single source of puppet masters

can it ?
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Heckler20Offline
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PostPosted: 26-02-2014 14:40    Post subject: Reply with quote

no.
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jimv1Offline
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PostPosted: 26-02-2014 17:43    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill Hicks...

'You are free to do whatever we tell you'.



Most of us go through some form of education system. But being educated and being trained to think are not necessarily the same thing.

A lot of people limit themselves from thinking creatively after a few applications of peer pressure.

Oh...one term I hate is' thinking outside the box'.... it's mostly used by businessmen in meetings to encourage thinking inside a slightly bigger box.
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chris138Offline
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PostPosted: 26-02-2014 22:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could an idea be teaching them about the world where they live when children are in high school? It's a capitalistic world so let them learn the very many cons of this. Be straight forward and open about our mistakes, then maybe we'll one day be governed by those who really want to achieve a civilized paradise here. I think it would be a good starting point to a big change.

Or they can keep churning out economic dead heads from private schools to run it.
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SpookdaddyOffline
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PostPosted: 27-02-2014 08:43    Post subject: Reply with quote

jimv1 wrote:
...one term I hate is' thinking outside the box'.... it's mostly used by businessmen in meetings to encourage thinking inside a slightly bigger box.


Ha. You've just reminded me of an incident that happened to me a few years back: I'd objected to a proposed approach to a job because I knew it wouldn't work. The proposer (who had little experience in the field) implied I was being an unecessarily negative stick in the mud (entirely unjustified: I'm actually pretty gung-ho, but I don't like having my time wasted) and thinking too much inside the box. I replied that this might have been true but that my box was a damn sight bigger than his, and wasn't full of fucking holes.

In a similar vein, those who criticise others for not thinking freely and for themselves are often, it seems to me, actually criticising people for not thinking exactly like they do.
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Heckler20Offline
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PostPosted: 27-02-2014 12:58    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spookdaddy wrote:

In a similar vein, those who criticise others for not thinking freely and for themselves are often, it seems to me, actually criticising people for not thinking exactly like they do.


Exactly this. You can't think outside of the box man, actually translates as you disagree with my point of view which is right therefore you are a wrong thinker.

As to the example you give, I have over the years built up a whole vocabulary to disguise that fact that I'm saying the idea someone has just pulled out of their ass is a pile of ill thought out do-do, usually revolving around 'I really like the way you've approached the problem, I hadn't thought of that, lets think through some of the pluses and minuses of your idea?'
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PeteByrdieOffline
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PostPosted: 27-02-2014 16:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heckler20 wrote:
I have over the years built up a whole vocabulary to disguise that fact that I'm saying the idea someone has just pulled out of their ass is a pile of ill thought out do-do, usually revolving around 'I really like the way you've approached the problem, I hadn't thought of that, lets think through some of the pluses and minuses of your idea?'


I wish I had that level of composure. I would end up following that statement with, 'Pluses; you're idea is hilarious! Minuses; you're mental!'

If I were on my laptop rather than my 'smart' phone, I'd contribute with all sorts of 'People should start being taught how the mind works really early' stuff, but it's too much effort on this confounded contraption.Rolling Eyes
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davidplanktonOffline
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PostPosted: 27-02-2014 16:49    Post subject: Reply with quote

PeteByrdie wrote:
I'd contribute with all sorts of 'People should start being taught how the mind works really early' stuff, but it's too much effort on this confounded contraption.Rolling Eyes


You really need to see the bigger picture. Laughing
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JonfairwayOffline
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PostPosted: 28-02-2014 13:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to everyone contributing

as usual tho some people are taking offence like its some sort of personal "go at them"

let start with an extreme case of what i am trying to get across then we can look at the more subversive stuff over the years

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_North_Korea

Keep the light away from someone for long enough and the light becomes very hard to see for them going forward...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_thought

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/10684/10684-h/10684-h.htm

IT is a common saying that thought is free. A man can never be hindered from thinking whatever he chooses so long as he conceals what he thinks. The working of his mind is limited only by the bounds of his experience and the power of his imagination. But this natural liberty of private thinking is of little value. It is unsatisfactory and even painful to the thinker himself, if he is not permitted to communicate his thoughts to others, and it is obviously of no value to his neighbours. Moreover it is extremely difficult to hide thoughts that have any power over the mind. If a man’s thinking leads him to call in question ideas and customs which regulate the behaviour of those about him, to reject beliefs which they hold, to see better ways of life than those they follow, it is almost impossible for him, if he is convinced of the truth of his own reasoning, not to betray by silence, chance words, or general attitude that he is different from them and does not share their opinions. Some have preferred, like Socrates, some would prefer to-day, to face death rather than conceal their thoughts. Thus freedom of thought, in any valuable sense, includes freedom of speech.

Over the centuries we are told the way we should think....

I'm not talking about thinking outside the box
or any of that Speak

i'm talking about looking at every thing we encounter with an open mind
not having any single religion, belief system, political restraint, peer pressure, parental biases etc....

WE and that means everyone should be nurtured to think as an individual
to come to conclusions ourselves

to work it our ourselves

i'll leave it here for a min
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milk23Offline
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PostPosted: 01-03-2014 18:32    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
i'm talking about looking at every thing we encounter with an open mind
not having any single religion, belief system, political restraint, peer pressure, parental biases etc....


The Uncarved Block, as it's known

You have to make an effort to receive all information as if for the first time. Influence surrounds us from the day we are born reinforcing prejudicial reactions. It's how we are built, otherwise we would keep burning ourselves on the kettle. Dogmatic approaches to life are inevitable when you consider our hard wiring.... you have to choose to rewire yourself
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CochiseOffline
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PostPosted: 02-03-2014 08:33    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course anyone can think freely if they make the effort. It's probably not a survival trait, though.

Just try pondering - as we did when we were teenagers and couldn't afford the pub - on some of the following propositions:

How do you objectively prove anyone else exists?

Why does human sight create solids and colours when there is no such thing, only waves of varying frequency and atoms at assorted denities?

What is time?

What is beyond the edge of the Universe?

Are numbers real?

What is your dog/cat looking at?

But while you are doing this the dishes won't get done and no money will get earned.
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JonfairwayOffline
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PostPosted: 03-03-2014 08:04    Post subject: Reply with quote

"you have to choose to rewire yourself"

for most people the conditioning continues and the thought of trying to think about things as if from the start does not come easily....

i'm not saying it does not happen, it does.... but its few instead of many...
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JonfairwayOffline
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PostPosted: 03-03-2014 08:15    Post subject: Reply with quote

"How do you objectively prove anyone else exists?

Why does human sight create solids and colours when there is no such thing, only waves of varying frequency and atoms at assorted denities?

What is time?

What is beyond the edge of the Universe?

Are numbers real?

What is your dog/cat looking at?

But while you are doing this the dishes won't get done and no money will get earned."

glad you posted this, because this is the crux really...

what is time ? something that was made up ? question is why ? not what ?

anything we make up becomes real enough.... its why that counts..... onto numbers.... counting ? why ? why do we need to count ? what do we count ? things, Money....for instance... numbers give a value...

Does it really matter what your cat is looking at ?
is it worth investigating ?
does it serve the greater good of the planet and man kind to know this ?

and on to my point

The world is full of woes, woes that can't and won't be sorted till everyone thinks in a similar way about what is the Greater Good
what is worth spending our COUNTED money on ?
what is worth out TIME working on

There are more things wrong than there are right....

i was horrified at how much money is spent on the US deffense budget yearly

How does this Benefit the greater good of the human race
How does spending Billions globally on ways of killing people help the greater good of mankind ?

yet it happens....

we need to start asking why is the world like this
why do we have problems ?

why don't I care ?
why do i not think about these problems every day ?
why don't we ( the global we ) get together and sort most of this...

back soon folks
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CochiseOffline
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PostPosted: 03-03-2014 08:25    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Does it really matter what your cat is looking at ?
is it worth investigating ?
does it serve the greater good of the planet and man kind to know this ?


Yes. Because, you see, the different balance of their senses must mean they perceive the world in a fundamentally different way than we do - pondering on that leads you to the revelation that what we see is not entirely what is there. In other words, I am directly agreeing with your point about 'rewiring' - which I would describe more simply as 'changing your point of view' - albeit by discarding our normal lazy reference points.

Quote:
The world is full of woes, woes that can't and won't be sorted till everyone thinks in a similar way about what is the Greater Good

And what if that collective consensus turns out to be wrong? Human track record on such issues is lamentably poor. Maybe the best thing for the planet is that we do self-limit our numbers by war, for example.

I think the most underused human ability is the one that lets you see how your arguments look to other people, or to put yourself in the other person's shoes. An ability which is even further atrophied by the way too many people - including on too many occasions myself - use the internet to reinforce their own views without really considering those of others.
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JonfairwayOffline
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PostPosted: 03-03-2014 13:21    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And what if that collective consensus turns out to be wrong? Human track record on such issues is lamentably poor. Maybe the best thing for the planet is that we do self-limit our numbers by war, for example.


so you see war as a legitimate tool to use to limit numbers.

war tends to kill innocents.... do you feel ok with that ?

on another note

is it ok for rich countries to keep other countries poor ?
is it ok for a minority of rich powerful people within a poor country taking the wealth for themselves ?

The greater good has to include everybody ?
we can't say the greater good is "only wealthy and powerful"

we cant say the greater good is only Christians
or Muslims
or atheists

we the human race are all the same.... and the greater good is everyone and our planet....

i heard yesterday that North Korean poor people are eating their own young ?

i can't confirm this is true, but the thought that this may be happening does somewhat concern me....

let me post a question here ? might be a bit contentious but lets see...

who does the war in Afghanistan benefit ?

The Afghan people as a whole ?
Afghan Male population ?
The Taliban ?
The US ?
The Oil Companies ?
Muslim Womens Rights ?
The illegal poppy drug trade ?
The Greater Good of all ?

any of the above ?

after how many billions spent and how many dead.... where are we now actually ?

just so you can think about this

is there enough money in all the world to sort all of its IMPORTANT issues

Is there enough people ? if they all worked together as a team to achieve global change ?

is WAR good ?

War progresses technology faster i know this

but do we need a war to progress technology ?
did we need a war to find anti biotics ?

or would looking at the woes that befall us as a TEAM give us the ability to find the solutions we need....
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