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Out of body experiences...from the sofa, not the ceiling.

 
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gattinoOffline
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PostPosted: 04-03-2009 18:21    Post subject: Out of body experiences...from the sofa, not the ceiling. Reply with quote

Melvyn Bragg apparently suffered regularly, and secretly, from spontaneous out of body experiences in his teens and early 20s, and its referred to in any number of interviews you can find online. What I can't find is a repetition of a more detailed account he told on This Morning many years ago,which I distinctly remember.

As I recall it at least one such experience he described was not of seeing his body below him from his position on the ceiling, but rather remaining consciously in the body on the sofa and seeing the "soul" on the ceiling above him!

I'm not sure I've heard of any other account like this, or quite what its implications might be, so would be interested if anyone else has heard such accounts anywhere.
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tracyk3337
PostPosted: 27-03-2009 11:15    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've experienced something very similar, although mine does seem much more "stress related."

It's only happened to me once in my life and I was totally freaked out by it. But the more I read about it, andread other people's opinions, the better I feel about it.

I think it's something we all have the capacity for but that it only happens in particular circumstances.

In some ways I feel "special" for being able to re-count such an experience - to have "felt" that there's no need to fear death - but on the other hand I feel, after reading through these boards, very reassured that I'm actually quite normal.

So I'm quite happy now to put it in a compartment of my mind marked "weird" (along with one or two other items) and then just get on with my life.
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MachineElf
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PostPosted: 27-03-2009 11:41    Post subject: Re: Out of body experiences...from the sofa, not the ceiling Reply with quote

gattino wrote:
Melvyn Bragg apparently suffered regularly, and secretly, from spontaneous out of body experiences in his teens and early 20s, and its referred to in any number of interviews you can find online. What I can't find is a repetition of a more detailed account he told on This Morning many years ago,which I distinctly remember.

As I recall it at least one such experience he described was not of seeing his body below him from his position on the ceiling, but rather remaining consciously in the body on the sofa and seeing the "soul" on the ceiling above him!

I'm not sure I've heard of any other account like this, or quite what its implications might be, so would be interested if anyone else has heard such accounts anywhere.


I have heard of people swapping between perspectives. Seeing bodily self below and then, from the body, seeing floating self above. I think it's pretty rare.

On another thread, Turtle62 was saying how he became a tree. Some NDErs say they 'became everything, all at once, outside of time'.

Heck, it seems that our sense of self is not what it appears to be! Susan Blackmore suggests that the sense of self is a discursive construct which can be assembled wherever and however the brain wants it. (It is just more usual for it to be situated in the head). She is influenced by Zen, I think.
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tracyk3337
PostPosted: 27-03-2009 11:54    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also understand now why people think they have seen or felt "God" during one of these experiences. I had an understanding of why people are prepared to believe it - the feeling of being connected or knowing "borrowing" strength from everything around. That's a completely emotional response, but it was an emotional experience.

The less said about that by me the better I think. But it's definitely one of the more positive aspects of the experience and something that will stick with me.

But I will never pray or go to church - it's so not me Very Happy
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DelphisBorn
PostPosted: 29-03-2009 20:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seeing a "double" externally from "within" the body is actually not that supremely rare in OOBE literature; so is seeing TWO other versions of yourself...a "physical" one and an "etheric" one. Of course, whether any of this has a basis outside of the mind's ability to generate "body images" in order to make sense of its three dimensionsal presence in the world, remains to be estabished. Ramachandran's "phantoms in the brain" is an excellent source to look into for an intelligent discussion of this subject. Clearly, the "phantom limbs" of amputees have a strong resemblance to the "phantom bodies" of OOBErs.
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DelphisBorn
PostPosted: 29-03-2009 20:41    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of interest, here is a brief excerpt from Melvyn Bragg's account of his experience. The entire segment can be read here (scroll to Bragg). Pretty interesting stuff actually, which we could talk about if folks are interested.

Quote:

I cannot remember before or since being anything like as terrified. I remember the fact of it now, and even a little digging into memory gives off something of the taste of it. I would simply lie in bed waiting for it to happen, screwing up my eyes as tight as possible, hoping that I would be felled by instant, merciful sleep or somehow left alone. When I was, the relief the next morning was momentary before the fear began to build again.

What happened was this. Not part of me, but what I was left the boy's body on that bed and went above - it seemed to the corner of the ceiling next to the window. It hovered there. It stayed there. It, that thing, that object, was me. The huddle on the bed was controlled by it. There was no will in the boy's body. There was only, as it were, a holding state uninhabited, save for a possessing aura of terror. Whether the terror was in the body or in that thing which, at times, I thought I could make out and describe, I do not know. But the experience was terror.

If the thing moved away then the body would be finished. It would be no more, because that thing not only controlled the body but gave it life. The desperate fear was - would these two fuse again or not? What did this presence want the body to do besides lying inert and being a void? Somehow an invisible helpline would be thrown and the two would come together - and usually by that time I was exhausted and went into sleep of a sort.
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tracyk3337
PostPosted: 29-03-2009 22:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's fascinating to read of other people's similar experiences (and somehow more compelling when it's someone so well known).

It was a rare experience for me, and have had nothing like it before or since. It must be quite upsetting for people who experience such things on a regular basis, although reading through the boards, some people seem to actively encourage it, or welcome it. I suppose that's just because my experience frightened me. But the more I read, the better.

Any minute now I'm going to start feeling quite normal. Boring even.
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QUESTionerOffline
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PostPosted: 31-03-2009 20:09    Post subject: Reply with quote

Elf,
Quote:
On another thread, Turtle62 was saying how he became a tree. Some NDErs say they 'became everything, all at once, outside of time'.

Heck, it seems that our sense of self is not what it appears to be! Susan Blackmore suggests that the sense of self is a discursive construct which can be assembled wherever and however the brain wants it. (It is just more usual for it to be situated in the head). She is influenced by Zen, I think.


And then there is the brain researcher Jill Bolte Taylor who completely lost her sense of self and lost all sense of 'boundaries' with the world upon having a massive stroke. This was a rare case because she was one of few to completely recover from such an episode - and be able to recount the 'other' perspective.
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DelphisBorn
PostPosted: 31-03-2009 23:00    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is also true of Jill Bolte Taylor though is that she didn't suddenly acquire pan-clairvoyance as a result of these boundaries being smashed. Which raises the question (if we believe in clairvoyance) what boundaries do THOSE exist beyond, and how are such boundaries smashed?
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QUESTionerOffline
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PostPosted: 31-03-2009 23:47    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I thought of that to. It's one thing to loose your sense of self and feel at one with a rock, but it's quite another thing to supposedly be aware of thoughts and feelings of others around you (a merging of actual consciousness etc). There seems to be yet another trigger in the brain that creates such sensations/perceptions (real or imaginary).

I would estimate that out of the hundreds of NDEs I have read, a good 80% of them claimed to have psychic senses or features as an ongoing occurence after their experience (and a further 'opening up' of their experience with the progress of time). These features are characteristically different than what Bolte reports.
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DelphisBorn
PostPosted: 31-03-2009 23:55    Post subject: Reply with quote

What interests me about Bragg's account is his conviction that his "out of body" self was the informing matrix for the life of his physical body.


This perception might be true, though I don't necessarily feel a need to interpret it dualistically. Keith Harary was one of the more famous "OOBErs" of the subject's history, though even he is on record more recently as saying he basically just played along with popular view of himself as a "super psychic" and that he doesn't necessarily believe that anything really left the body in his OOBEs.

Be that as it may, there is more than one definition of "out". Out of range of influence, for example, would (imo) be a potentially more complete, or accurate, definition. I DO in fact suspect that the OOBE body (which I call the somal unconscious) is the informing matrix for the physical body, and that without it, the body becomes "under-informed" rapidly, that is, begins to die. There is a lot of evidence suggestive (I say suggestive, not conclusive) of this pattern from OOBE literature, including many cases of profound suppression of the physical body upon "return" from an OOBE, as well as no shortage of cases where people had the direct intuition that they must re-unite their experiencing centre with the physical if the body was not to die.

Of course, one can put a "psychological" interpretation on this, but that seems to be a round peg forced into a square hole.
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sherbetbizarreOffline
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PostPosted: 03-04-2009 12:14    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is from a new interview with Carl Stottor, survivor of serial killer Dennis Nilson. Although it's more of the traditional looking-down-at-the-body type.

This comes during Nilson's night-time assault on him:

Quote:
Carl remembers being taken out of the bath and dripping water on the floor. Then everything went black. At some point he had a dreamy recollection of being high up in a front room, looking down on a man lying on a sofa, whose face was covered in blood. Dennis was standing in the corner of the room. Carl says, “The dog was licking the man’s face and I was looking down on them. Then I felt a surge forward, as if I was moving into the man’s body. I realised that the man on the sofa was actually me. It felt like I’d had a near death experience.”


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