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theyithian Keeping the British end up
Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Total posts: 11704 Location: Vermilion Sands Gender: Unknown |
 Posted: 19-07-2003 02:05 Post subject: |
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| Lord_Flashheart wrote: |
His walk was not uncharacteristic  |
Routine. Makes easy work for assassins.  |
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| dot23 Osirian X Joined: 21 Aug 2001 Total posts: 1137 Location: Hanoi Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 19-07-2003 06:33 Post subject: |
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Hi Emma - you live near my mate Cheryl (but don't know her, right?). Anyway, is there anything on the local news which hasn't got to the mainstream yet? Good chance to do some fortean snooping down the pub
| Quote: | Mr Blair's spokesman said: "The prime minister is obviously very distressed for the family.
"If it is Dr Kelly's body, the Ministry of Defence will hold an independent judicial inquiry into the circumstances leading up to his death."
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news.bbc.co.uk
"independent judicial inquiry" being a euphamism for "whitewash", no doubt! This stinks to high heaven - Welcome to the Banana Republic of England! |
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| dot23 Osirian X Joined: 21 Aug 2001 Total posts: 1137 Location: Hanoi Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 19-07-2003 06:41 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Special report: politics and Iraq | Special report: politics and the media
The vendetta's victim
Crisis for the Blair government
Michael White, Richard Norton-Taylor, Steven Morris and Matt Wells
Saturday July 19, 2003
The Guardian
Tony Blair's government was last night shaken to its foundations by the apparent suicide of Dr David Kelly, the backroom Whitehall scientist caught in the lethal crossfire over weapons of mass destruction between Downing Street and the BBC.
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The manner of his death remained unknown last night but it is understood investigators quickly ruled out natural causes.
Suggestions that Dr Kelly, a father of three daughters, suffered shotgun injuries or that a rope was found at the scene were discounted by police sources. No suicide note has been found at the scene or at Dr Kelly's home.
Police sources said the family did not report the disappearance more quickly because they were so sure that, despite the pressure he was under, [b]he would not be driven to take his own life[b] (my emphasis).
However, when Dr Kelly's wife, Janice, spoke to a close friend of her husband's, the television journalist and author Tom Mangold, before the body was found she conceded that her husband had been furious at how he had been treated over the last two weeks. Mangold said: "She said he was very stressed and unhappy about what had happened. This was really not the kind of world he wanted to live in."
She told Mangold her husband had felt physically sick after he left the foreign affairs committee.
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So we're to believe the testimnoy of Tom Mangold, hmmm... Let's just hope they don't get to his wife and the kids. |
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| mejane1 miaow, miaow... purrrr Joined: 17 Jan 2002 Total posts: 1637 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 19-07-2003 08:10 Post subject: |
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Can we put the theories concerning Dr Kelly's life and death onto a new thread, please?
According to Radio Oxford this morning, he suffered from depression for several years (this doesn't necessarily mean that he also had suicidal thoughts), but the police are treating his death as "unnatural".
There seems to be a lot of confusion about his role in the ongoing Goverment/BBC controversy - on the one hand, we're told that he volunteered the information that he may have been the source of Andew Gilligan's "sexing up" allegation; then we're told that he wasn't the source and couldn't handle the media pressure.
Jane. |
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| rynner Location: Still above sea level Gender: Male |
| Posted: 19-07-2003 09:38 Post subject: |
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| mejane wrote: |
Can we put the theories concerning Dr Kelly's life and death onto a new thread, please? |
If this was just another 'death of a bloke' story it would be of little general interest - it is because of its connection to the Iraq enquiry that it is given such prominence.
And the ramifications could be extreme - according to the Telegraph (and other papers): | Quote: | Senior MPs said Alastair Campbell, the Prime Minister's communications director, and Geoff Hoon, the Defence Secretary, could be forced to resign if the Government was blamed for forcing Dr Kelly into the spotlight.
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DT Link |
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| McAvennie_ OBE Joined: 13 Mar 2003 Total posts: 2678 Location: Paris, France Age: 34 Gender: Male |
| Posted: 19-07-2003 10:09 Post subject: David Kelly - suicide? |
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Was this a suicide then? Am I just being overly suspiscious by thinking it likely that he was taken out? Is Blair's government influential enough to be able to cover something like this up and set up a staged suicide? Did he know something more, was he set to reveal something darker? Or was this just a straight-forward suicide? Personally, I want to think this was something more, I'd love this to lead to arrogant Blair's downfall but I have to think this was suicide but a very unfortunate one that is gonna look very suspiscious. Maybe that was kind of a motive on his part if he was planning to kill himself.
Doubt we will ever hear the truth.
LONGWORTH, England, July 18 (Reuters) - A mild-mannered British scientist was found dead in the woods on Friday after being unwittingly dragged into a fierce political dispute about intelligence used to justify war on Iraq.
British police said they had found a body matching that of soft-spoken defence ministry biologist David Kelly, a former U.N. weapons inspector, who had been grilled in parliament over allegations the government hyped intelligence to justify war.
The political fallout was immediate. Prime Minister Tony Blair, who learned about the discovery of the body while flying from Washington to Tokyo, promised an independent judicial inquiry into the death if the body was confirmed to be Kelly's.
But opponents called for Blair to return and face a broader probe into the case he made for war. The shock even sent Britain's pound tumbling half a percent on currency markets as traders weighed the severity of the crisis for Blair.
Kelly's family reported him missing overnight after he went for a walk in the Oxfordshire countryside on Thursday with no coat and stayed out despite a rainstorm. Police said they were not treating his death as suspicious and that the cause of death would not be confirmed until a post-mortem had been carried out.
Kelly had denied being the source for BBC reporter Andrew Gilligan, who said in May a senior intelligence source had told him the government had "sexed up" intelligence on Iraq.
That report sparked parliamentary hearings into how the government made the case for war, forced Blair onto the defensive and pitted government officials against the BBC.
News of Kelly's death completely overshadowed Blair's rapturous reception by the U.S. Congress on Thursday, although there was no indication the prime minister would turn back from a scheduled week-long trip to Asia.
"The prime minister is obviously very distressed for the family of Dr Kelly," a spokesman said aboard the flight.
RELUCTANT WITNESS
Opposition Conservative Party leader Iain Duncan Smith said Blair should return from abroad and any inquiry should cover the entire issue of intelligence used to justify the war.
"If I was the prime minister, I would cut short this visit and return home. There are very many questions that will need to be asked over the coming days," he said.
Kelly had clearly been reluctant to enter the public debate over Iraq intelligence.
Speaking so softly he could barely be heard, he admitted to parliament's foreign affairs committee he had met Gilligan, but denied telling him that Blair's communications chief Alastair Campbell had ordered intelligence to be hyped.
Kelly appeared shell-shocked when parliamentarians at the hearing described him as "chaff" and a government "fall guy" put forward to shield top officials from blame.
Kelly's wife Jane described Kelly as deeply upset, family friend Tom Mangold, a television journalist, told ITV News.
"She told me he had been under considerable stress, that he was very, very angry about what had happened at the committee, that he wasn't well," Mangold said.
The government said that if Kelly was Gilligan's source, their differing accounts proved the BBC story was wrong. Gilligan, who never named his source, was questioned at a closed-door hearing around the time Kelly vanished on Thursday. |
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| stuneville Administrator
Joined: 09 Mar 2002 Total posts: 10230 Location: FTMB HQ Age: 46 Gender: Male |
| Posted: 19-07-2003 10:21 Post subject: |
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Oddly enough, we've already been discussing this over on the Iraq Aftermath thread (look towards the end, it does crop up rather a lot at the moment).
A majority vote between the mods said that this story belongs under there, BTW, so I'm closing this thread, rather than merging it into Iraq, in case someone bizarrely wanders onto Conspiracy to look for this particular story.
If that makes sense. |
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| rynner Location: Still above sea level Gender: Male |
| Posted: 19-07-2003 10:47 Post subject: |
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An ITV angle on the Kelly story: | Quote: | His close friend Tom Mangold cast fresh doubt about the accusations made by Andrew Gilligan.
Mr Mangold said the scientist had come to believe he was the source but had not mentioned a key claim used in the report.
"I guess he couldn't cope with the firestorm that developed after he gave what he regarded as a routine briefing to Gilligan," he said.
"He was a man whose brain could boil water, he used words with tremendous precision, he used them as weapons," he said.
"If Dave Kelly is dead, he is dead because of something that happened in journalism which means that we all have to look to our consciences."
Mr Mangold also revealed that Dr Kelly, had talked to a BBC Ten O'Clock News journalist on the same day that he spoke to the radio reporter Andrew Gilligan.
Dr Kelly had admitted, under questioning by the foreign affairs select committee, that he had met Newsnight reporter Susan Watts as well as Andrew Gilligan - but this is the first time there has been any mention of a third BBC journalist being briefed by the microbiologist.
Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee Donald Anderson was asked if he thought the questioning of Dr Kelly had been too strong.
He said: "If it was strong, the criticisms appear to be more directed against the Ministry of Defence, rather than against him.
"It wasn't as if he could be seen as a victim in the corner, or a person against whom a complaint was being made. So I don't think the questioning was aggressive against him.
Mr Anderson said about Dr Kelly: "He struck me as very much an honourable man and fairly relaxed during the course of the hearing.
"The committee said on several occasions that he had acted in a honourable way and we were treating him a non aggressive way."
"I concede of course it was wholly outside his normal experience, therefore must have certainly been an ordeal for him.
"But remember, he had gone to his line management, he had said `I may be the person involved' and I'm sure that if the Ministry of Defence had done nothing about it and not made it public, the answer would have been subject to criticism at that time.
"When he'd made the confession that he may have been the person the Ministry then put out a press notice."
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From ITV news |
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| Anonymous |
| Posted: 19-07-2003 11:13 Post subject: |
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| Lord_Flashheart wrote: |
His walk was not uncharactaristc It was saying on the news earlier that he went for a walk regully before dinner and came back in time for tea thats what raised the alarm for his wife, there were only a few walks he could have done in the time in the local area, hence the fact that the police didn't take long to find him, he was in one of the first places they'd have looked. |
But he went out around 15:00, the search didn't begin until around midnight (according to the BBC coverage last night) and he wasn't found until 09:20 -nearly 9 and a half hours of searching to find him less than 5 miles from home in an area where he was known to go regularly when out for a walk? That seems a bit slow to me, even if the police do seem to have been quick off the mark in starting the search.
I mean, it's not like suicides try to hide their bodies afterwards, and it's the height of summer so the search wouldn't have been conducted in darkness for much of that time. (I forget, does sunrise happen earlier or later the further south you go? Up here the light's what I'd call useable outdoors just now from around 4 - 4.30 am onwards. But then, I'm a townie and not much given to peering into vegetation-lined pathways in the early mornings, even when I am still up at that time.) |
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| McAvennie_ OBE Joined: 13 Mar 2003 Total posts: 2678 Location: Paris, France Age: 34 Gender: Male |
| Posted: 19-07-2003 11:27 Post subject: |
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SUICIDE
* He was under intense pressure and he was being made a scapegoat.
* General public opinion is apparently against the war. If, at worst he could do, came out and said 'Yes, I was the one and only source - I told BBC that the document was 'sexed up'" then general public opinion would be behind him surely? The public anger would be at Campbell/Blair. He'd lose his jo but would have public support and would prob do all right in selling his story etc.
* He left no note? Seemed from what I've read to be a decent family man, would he seriously put his family through further pain/anguish? Then again I suppose you can say that of any suicide case after the event.
* If he was suicidal and did kil himself what better vengeance on the gov'ment that made him the scapegoat than making his suicide look like a staged suicide, however you would do that...!
MURDER
* It would be so easy, if he took regular walks all it would take would be to work out his regular walk-time, lie in wait, work quick and whammo leave him where he'll be found and it's all finished.
* Maybe he had arranged to meet someone, as as been suggested and it proved fatal. In which case you have to wonder what more he could have to say/reveal that it was deemed neccessary to do away with him?
NATURAL CAUSES
* From what I read in the paper this morning the detective on the scene stated that 'it would have been a painful death' which suggests if he wasn't hung or shot something like slashed wrists?
If that is true then natural causes can be ruled out.
If itwas then someone up there is playing somemischief.
AFTERMATH
* Will this bring down Blair, here's hoping.
* What further secret/revelation was so big he had to be killed? Would his talking to the BBC really warrant a murder. Would they risk all this speculation just to punish a whistle-blower? Did they think no-one would notice?
* Will people buy the straight suicide story if the inquest comes out that way?
* Is the current Gov'ment powerful enough to cover up a hired hit like this?
My opinion is undecided. I'd love to think it was some Gov'ment hired goons who did it with their black suits and shades on and that it will all be revealed and Blair ousted BUT I think that one too many TV shows/movies has influenced my mind and at present I'm leaning towards suicide by maybe 55% to 45%.
Shall reserve full judgement until more details emerge. |
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| rynner Location: Still above sea level Gender: Male |
| Posted: 19-07-2003 12:59 Post subject: |
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Konspiract Korner in FT174 (mine arrived today) leads us to this website, where Sherman Skolnick makes this claim: | Quote: | ...in January, what some prefer to call jointly the American CIA/Bush Crime Family, conducted a "black bag" job. They did a break-in and entry into the residence of Alan Greenspan, Commissar of the Federal Reserve, America's highly secretive PRIVATE central bank.
What all were they looking for? Among other things, they sought to retrieve, and keep from ever surfacing, a series of Federal Reserve wire transfer records, showing certain transactions done under the secret authorization code of Greenspan.
The dealings were several months previous. They show that George Herbert Walker Bush used the Carlyle Group to forward some sixteen Billion Dollars to British Prime Minister Tony Blair. Daddy Bush has been a senior paid consultant with Carlyle to, among others, the Bin Laden Group, the Saudi Family dominating several industries in Saudi and the Middle East, including construction. They are NOT actually on the outs with family member Osama, who they finance, also with members of the Saudi Royal Family, through a major bank in Saudi, and banks and financial entities worldwide, including the Dutch money laundry, Algemene Bank Nederland, now ABN-AMRO.
Here is the circuitous route the funds took
[1] The existence of the transactions, by themselves, sufficiently prove the prior planning jointly of White House occupant and resident George W. Bush financially bending Tony Blair. The upshot of it all, was to have Blair join with Dubya (said quickly Texas style) to seize eventually the Iraqi oilfields, for two purposes.
First, to use the oil treasure as collateral to underwrite the huge U.S. deficit, soon to be out-of-control. Thus laying the way for Dubya to push a huge tax cut for the one or two percent of Americans, the wealthiest in the U.S.
Second, to seek to prop up the Bank of England caught up on the wrong side of speculations in the Kuwaiti Dinar, a currency pegged to the so-called "U.S. Dollar", actually hot-air Federal Reserve Notes. And further, to seek to bail out the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, the Chicago Board Options Exchange, and LIFFE, the International Financial Futures and Options Exchange in London.
To understand the route of the bribe to Blair and the route, some background is necessary. [2] Starting in the late 1980s and up to 1991, the highly mysterious espionage money laundry, BCCI, Bank of Credit and Commerce International, was later implicated in a scheme to bribe more than 25 per cent of both houses of Congress. More than 28 U.S. Senators and more than 108 Congressmen.
....
And what is the possible fall-out from the full disclosure of the Bush to Blair bribery? The possible wreckage of the Chicago markets together with LIFFE, for openers. And a successful attack on the British Pound Sterling because of disclosures that the Bank of England, having gambled away their assets on Kuwaiti Dinar Derivatives, along with those exchanges, is insolvent and cannot any longer support the Pound in world currency markets.
Further, Blair would be open to criminal bribery prosecution together with charges against Daddy Bush and Dubya, of treason, international bribery, racketeering, and sundry other federal criminal offenses.
....
Also, shown is the Bush Crime Family JOINT ACCOUNT with the Queen of England, at her PRIVATE bank, Coutts Bank London. In December 19, 2001, the London Financial Times reported that the Queen of England sent her top bank executive, Andrew Fisher, to be a top official of Carlyle Group. Bush/British Monarch account shows a transaction of ONE HUNDRED BILLION DOLLARS. The secret Federal Reserve wire transfer records, showing the secret authorization code of Alan Greenspan, are part of our website series.
So, will the latest secret Federal Reserve wire transfer records be posted? Wait and see.
[7] Furthermore, the Bush/Blair documents show that Tony Blair privately greatly profitted from arranging shipments to North Korea to enhance their nuclear capability. In that regard, he privately benefitted, as we mentioned in a previous part of this series, like Hillary Rodham Clinton, likewise implicated in privately profitting from shipments of nuclear items to North Korea. As to both Blair and Hillary, the shipments were reportedly made through Royal Jordanian Airlines. [As to Hillary and North Korea, we showed that document about a year ago on our Chicago public access Cable TV Program, "Broadsides"].
So, will the latest documents be posted? More coming. Stay tuned.
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I can't wait! [Yawn]  |
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| SoundDust Milkshake Holy Grail (Mediocre Old One)
Age: 11 Gender: Male |
| Posted: 19-07-2003 14:41 Post subject: |
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death caused by slashed wrist
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Police have confirmed a body found in Oxfordshire woodland is Dr David Kelly, as Tony Blair comes under intense pressure over his death.
A spokesman said a post-mortem revealed the death was caused by a cut to the left wrist and a knife was found nearby, along with a packet of painkillers.
The government will now hold an independent judicial inquiry into the circumstances surrounding the Iraq weapons expert's death.
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| oll_lewis mi mou tous kiklous taratte
sea below Joined: 14 Feb 2002 Total posts: 3071 Location: Woolfardisworthy Age: 33 Gender: Male |
| Posted: 19-07-2003 15:37 Post subject: |
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well slashed wrists dose seem to fit with what was beimg said yesterday.
But sewercide? I'm still not to sure about that one... he was well used to dealing with the media and inquireys etc (don't foget he was a wepons inspector) so why would this one in patcular be any different to make him angry?
having to deal with snakes like blair and cambell would have been exaserbateing. one imagines A.C. perhaps paying him a visit and telling him to say things a certain way, not nessersaraly a truthful way, that might have been what got him so angry. And when this alledged plan of cambells didn't work kelly may have been doubly angry because he had been forced to do something he might not have wanted to do and then made to look a fool. This left blair and campbell with a loose cannon, the primeministers press secretary wold be all of a tizzy at that, what if kelly spoke to the press about being asked to lie? that had the potential to bring down cambell and odds on blair too. We know from his recent dealings with the bbc that campbell gets really angry if things go wrong of if someone out wits him... mayhaps Campbell ordered a hit man and said
"make it look like sewercide and do it while tony and I are out of the country to make it look like we couldn't possibly involved..."
Allegedly |
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| theyithian Keeping the British end up
Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Total posts: 11704 Location: Vermilion Sands Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 19-07-2003 15:46 Post subject: |
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The knife and pain-killers don't close any avenues of possibility. For a start i want the knife traced and either a statement that the pills are missing from the family home or a receipt/witness to their purchase.
Unless the police are being leant on this will be getting examined as we speak.
Just for peace of mind i'd like to hear a second opinion on the post mortem from an independent doctor. Does anyone know if this is standard procedure or not? |
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| oll_lewis mi mou tous kiklous taratte
sea below Joined: 14 Feb 2002 Total posts: 3071 Location: Woolfardisworthy Age: 33 Gender: Male |
| Posted: 19-07-2003 15:57 Post subject: |
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wheres Quincy when you nead him, eh?
not standard proceadure to get another doctor in to make sure, but at least he didn't die in france ("non! monsoir Studabacker is not 'ere as we are 'aveing an 'ollidady and cannot be arsed to even look ak the cctv vids from charles de gaul airport that show he is 'ere."). |
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