Forums

 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages 
The Picts
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Fortean Times Message Board Forum Index -> Earth Mysteries - historical and classical cases
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
KondoruOffline
Unfeathered Biped
Joined: 05 Dec 2003
Total posts: 5371
Gender: Unknown
PostPosted: 28-02-2006 21:43    Post subject: Reply with quote

Margaret Murray mentioned that witches were said to have a blue mark upon them, -presumably a tattoo?

And in the Hogmany celebrations the `first footer` was said to be a dark person. Now most scots are blonde or light brown haired, in old scotland if you had really dark hair it would mean you were another race, a pict perhaps? or in west coastal areas, a saami? (and so presumably a magician)

(I dont know if there were many true romanies in scotland; were the tinkers dark haired?
Back to top
View user's profile 
many_angled_oneOffline
Haunter of the Dark
Joined: 18 Jan 2002
Total posts: 429
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Gender: Male
PostPosted: 01-03-2006 13:56    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Celts of Britain traded fairly extensively with Gaul and were master jewlery makers and goldsmiths, part of the reason the Romans invaded...that and I think there is some speculation we used to help fund Gaulish efforts to beat the crap out of them on a regular basis.
Britian used to export metalwork, though it lacked the mass manufacture of the Romans.

Let us not forget there were people already in Britain before the Celtic tribes arrived, the megalith constructors for one. So yes, the dark haired picts were separate from the Celts, though seemingly they were influenced by the Celts and no doubt interbreeding, at least later on, as evidenced by Pictish artwork in the north of Scotland. Spirals and cup and ring markings etc.
Back to top
View user's profile 
Anonymous
PostPosted: 01-03-2006 22:51    Post subject: Reply with quote

The term 'True Romanies' is somewhat pejorative and usually employed by those wishing to impose sanctions on those of a nomadic bent. Whatever you may think of that, it's probably best left here to the Kilroys of the world.

But, yes Scotland does have a Romany (that is, Romani-speaking and observant of cultural taboos and mores found across Romani populations in Europe) community mostly concentrated in the lowlands, particularly numerous in Larkhall, West Lothian and the borders. Scotland had its own Gypsy Kings, crowned at Yetholm until the late nineteenth century. Most of them are from the Kalderash tribe.

The position of the 'Tinkers' is somewhat different. There has been a great deal of intermarriage in some parts, giving rise to the 'Gypsy Traveller' epithet. Generally though, the two groups do not get on, the Tinkers referring to the Romanies as 'thae foreigners' while the Romanies turn their nose up at them and think up much more creative names, usually in Romani.

Scottish Tinkers are of a kind with the Irish and speak Cant, although in the highlands they spoke a Gaelic backslang known as buerla regaird. Timothy Neat's The Summer Walkers was published a few years ago and is probably the most authoritative recent account of these northern Tinkers, known as the Ceardannan. their roots go back at least as far as Celtic/Gaelic Scotland, though others have posited that due to their distinctive use of words not-cognate with Gaelic, Scots or English and their physical appearance, they may be a Pictish or Neolithic throwback. Neat himself plumps for a relationship with the Lapps and Sami, supported somewhat by cultural similarities and their facial appearance. He describes Tinkers as broad-headed, relatively flat faced and stocky, often dark haired but sometimes fair-headed, like the Sami. And it is true, if you know what to look for you can usually detect Tinker ancestry among some individuals from these features - although Neat's association is very much a circumstantial theory.

However, Traveller populations are no more static than settled - the ranks of Scotland's Travelling people have been swollen since the process of land clearance began in the 17th century, reaching a height with the Highland clearances, the Scottish Potato Famine and movement towards an enclosure system. Not sure if any of these DNA wizards have been conducting any tests in this area or not.

Anyway, hope that clears up some of your questions


Last edited by Guest on 01-03-2006 22:59; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
Anonymous
PostPosted: 01-03-2006 22:56    Post subject: Ps... Reply with quote

In both Scotland and Ireland the instances of 'Iberians' - dark haired, relatively dark skinned people among the population has been long reported. In Ireland, folklore attributes it to a throwback from Milesius, the Spanish Celt who allegedly brought the current day residents over to Ireland in his prehistoric conquest of the country. The Iberians have also been linked to Spanish survivors of the Armada, washed ashore and taken up with local girls.It has also, of course, been linked to signs of the Pretani or Cruithne, the early pre-Celtic population of Scotland and Ireland and apparent progenitors of the Picts still extant among the population.

I'll shut up now.
Back to top
KondoruOffline
Unfeathered Biped
Joined: 05 Dec 2003
Total posts: 5371
Gender: Unknown
PostPosted: 01-03-2006 23:12    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that is what I meant, Cruithne
Back to top
View user's profile 
rynner
Location: Still above sea level
Gender: Male
PostPosted: 06-08-2008 07:33    Post subject: Reply with quote

Long but interesting article here on the Pictish monastery at Portmahomack on the Tarbat peninsula in Easter Ross. (Apparently they used the Golden Section,amongst other things.)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-truth-about-the-picts-886098.html
Back to top
View user's profile 
nch20031Offline
Grey
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Total posts: 12
Gender: Unknown
PostPosted: 06-08-2008 16:08    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh and extracting the blue dye from woad produces a really strong foul smell and processing it was banned from within city limits during medeival times. Apparently it smells like excrement and boiled cabbage.
Back to top
View user's profile 
GinandoOffline
Great Old One
Joined: 03 Mar 2008
Total posts: 294
Location: Somewhere other than where I really want to be
Gender: Male
PostPosted: 10-08-2008 19:14    Post subject: Reply with quote

A link to article on a pictish stone near my home.
http://www.ancient-scotland.co.uk/site.php?a=141

There is the site of a Pictish fort at nearby Burghead, although as usual with sites in Scotland, not much has been done to exploit this site or educate people about the Pictish life.

Then of course theres Robbie the Pict, who is an interesting individual and who keeps coming up with little gems which have embarrased the government and succeeded in the abolition of tolls on the Skye Bridge.
http://www.highlanderweb.co.uk/robpict.htm
Back to top
View user's profile 
celticroseOffline
Great Old One
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Total posts: 153
Location: Cardiff, Wales
Age: 29
Gender: Female
PostPosted: 11-08-2008 09:21    Post subject: Reply with quote

alytha wrote:
Weeelll...
There's the Nac Mac Feegle, who call themselves pictsies..as they believe in different worlds, they might well have been here at some point...
To be found on any Terry Pratchett site

Then there's the Taltos, who are the real picts, if you believe Anne Rice...but they've pretty much died out now, apparently...
To be found on Anne Rice-stuff pages

Cool Alytha


I have your signature tatooed on my wrist Embarassed
Back to top
View user's profile 
rynner2Offline
What a Cad!
Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Total posts: 25888
Location: Under the moon
Gender: Male
PostPosted: 11-08-2010 07:54    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ancient language mystery deepens
By Victoria Gill, Science reporter, BBC News

A linguistic mystery has arisen surrounding symbol-inscribed stones in Scotland that predate the formation of the country itself.

The stones are believed to have been carved by members of an ancient people known as the Picts, who thrived in what is now Scotland from the 4th to the 9th Centuries.

These symbols, researchers say, are probably "words" rather than images.

But their conclusions have raised criticism from some linguists.

The research team, led by Professor Rob Lee from Exeter University in the UK, examined symbols on more than 200 carved stones.

They used a mathematical method to quantify patterns contained within the symbols, in an effort to find out if they conveyed meaning.

Professor Lee described the basis of this method.

"It I told you the first letter of a word in English was 'Q' and asked you to predict the next letter, you would probably say 'U' and you would probably be right," he explained.

"But if I told you the first letter was 'T' you would probably take many more guesses to get it right - that's a measure of uncertainty."

Using the symbols, or characters, from the stones, Professor Lee and his colleagues measured this feature of so-called "character to character uncertainty".

They concluded that the Pictish carvings were "symbolic markings that communicated information" - that these were words rather than pictures.

Professor Lee first published these conclusions in April of this year. But a recent article by French linguist Arnaud Fournet opened up the mystery once again.

Mr Fournet said that, by examining Pictish carvings as if they were "linear symbols", and by applying the rules of written language to them, the scientists could have produced biased results.

He commented to BBC News: "It looks like their method is transforming two-dimensional glyphs into a one-dimensional string of symbols.

"The carvings must have some kind of purpose- some kind of meanings, but... it's very difficult to determine if their conclusion is contained in the raw data or if it's an artefact of their method."

Mr Fournet also suggested that the researchers' methods should be tested and verified for other ancient symbols.

"The line between writing and drawing is not as clear-cut as categorised in the paper," Mr Fournet wrote in his article. "On the whole the conclusion remains pending."

But Professor Lee says that his most recent analysis of the symbols, which has yet to be published, has reinforced his original conclusions.

He also stressed he did not claim that the carvings were a full and detailed record of the Pictish language.

"The symbols themselves are a very constrained vocabulary," he said. "But that doesn't mean that Pictish had such a constrained vocabulary."

He said the carvings might convey the same sort of meaning as a list, perhaps of significant names, which would explain the limited number of words used.

"It's like finding a menu for a restaurant [written in English], and that being your sole repository of the English language."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-10924743
Back to top
View user's profile 
KondoruOffline
Unfeathered Biped
Joined: 05 Dec 2003
Total posts: 5371
Gender: Unknown
PostPosted: 11-08-2010 08:09    Post subject: Reply with quote

So they were Pictograms, yes?

I was in Pictland in April, took Dad to see a few stones (and a Souterrain)

He was most upset when I told him no one knew what they meant.
Back to top
View user's profile 
Zilch5Offline
Vogon Poet
Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Total posts: 1568
Location: Western Sydney, Australia
Gender: Male
PostPosted: 11-02-2013 01:06    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I presume Picts were the ancestors of the Scots? So I am putting this here:

Quote:
'First tartan' on Roman statue

Remnants of a Roman statue in North Africa could be the "first-ever depiction of tartan", according to a BBC Scotland documentary.

A piece of a bronze statue of the Emperor Caracalla contains the small figure of a Caledonian warrior wearing what appears to be tartan trews.

The third century Roman emperor Caracalla styled himself as the conqueror of the Caledonians.

A statue marking his achievements stood in the Moroccan city of Volubilis.

It stood above a great archway in the ancient city, which lay in the south west of the Roman empire, 1,500 miles from Caledonia - modern day Scotland.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-20579219
Back to top
View user's profile 
oldroverOffline
Great Old One
Joined: 18 Oct 2009
Total posts: 2227
Location: Wales
Gender: Male
PostPosted: 11-02-2013 11:06    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Well, I presume Picts were the ancestors of the Scots?



No, the Scot's ancestors were the Scoti who came from Ireland. The Picts were the culture before them.
Back to top
View user's profile 
Zilch5Offline
Vogon Poet
Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Total posts: 1568
Location: Western Sydney, Australia
Gender: Male
PostPosted: 11-02-2013 11:32    Post subject: Reply with quote

I knew I was going to be corrected on this one! Laughing

But there isn't a Scoti thread and this statue would be of the time of the Picts, right? Wrong, no doubt...
Back to top
View user's profile 
oldroverOffline
Great Old One
Joined: 18 Oct 2009
Total posts: 2227
Location: Wales
Gender: Male
PostPosted: 11-02-2013 11:34    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zilch5 wrote:
But there isn't a Scoti thread and this statue would be of the time of the Picts, right? Wrong, no doubt...


No you're wrong, what you say is quite right. This would definitely date from the Pict's era.
Back to top
View user's profile 
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Fortean Times Message Board Forum Index -> Earth Mysteries - historical and classical cases All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 4 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group