Forums

Posted: 25-08-2011 21:45 Post subject:

(This could also go in the 'Population Growth' thread.)

Where could I be buried if graveyards run out of space?
Cemeteries across the UK are becoming overcrowded. Lucy Townsend explores whether there might be any space left for her.

Resting beside our loved ones when the time comes is a reassuring notion for the living. Families pay thousands of pounds for land where generations can rest in peace together for eternity.
But in the UK at least, the ground is filling up.

Should I wish to, I could not be buried near to my relatives at Yardley Cemetery in south Birmingham. Space there ran out in 1962.
Similarly, I would struggle to find a place near another strand of my family in Halesowen. There is no room left underground there and other facilities at nearby Lye and Wollescote are expected to run out in the next four years.

What if I head south? I lived in Brighton once and a seaside burial sounds quite nice. But four of the seven cemeteries run by Brighton and Hove Council are already full, and of the three remaining, one is for Orthodox Jews only.

That leaves me two potentials, but as I plan to live till I am 100, there are 72 years of people dying before I can claim my spot. The odds of me being able to do that seem daunting.
Planning my eternal resting place has become less morbid and more of a logistical conundrum.

I could be cremated, as with the majority of Britons, and have my ashes scattered. Or I could leave my body to science.

One option is Promession, expected to arrive in the UK in the next 18 months, where my body would be frozen to -18C, then submerged in liquid nitrogen at -196C and vibrated until I shatter. Any metals I might have accumulated - such as a new hip or fillings in my 100-year-old teeth - would be extracted and recycled and my organic remains would go back into the life cycle of the soil.
But these alternatives are non-starters for some. Religious reasons or other long-held beliefs mean that for around 30% of the population, burial is the only option.

But in some of the crowded cities of the UK, the situation is serious.
"Quite frankly, we've run out of space," says Barrie Hargrove of Southwark Council in south London. As cabinet member for environment, he is trying to get to grips with the overcrowding issue.
With only three months worth of space left, he is searching for ever more creative ways to find usable land. Included in the list of potential remedies is the "dig and deepen" method, where remains are dug up and reburied deeper to create stacking space for new coffins - a double-decker graveyard.
Hargrove says the idea makes people wince, but it has been used by the Church of England for years and research shows the public to be broadly in favour.
"It's not something people want to talk about or think about," he adds.

More controversially, Southwark Council is also considering converting a community playground into a burial site. More than 2,000 people have signed a petition to keep the land, which was bought in 1910 as grave space but given to the public because it wasn't needed at the time. Now it is needed, and if developed it would provide 30 more years of burials.

This situation is not universal. In some countries a more pragmatic approach to human remains means they have largely avoided the overcrowding issue.
In Germany, graves are reused after only 30 years, the existing remains usually being exhumed and cremated. In Australia and New Zealand, "dig and deepen" is carried out in urban areas as a matter of routine.

Tim Morris, chief executive of the Institute of Cemetery and Crematorium Management, says it is time to change tack.
"It's a no-brainer," he says. "Re-use is common in lots of other countries, and was common practice in the UK until the 1850s. I've spent some time with some German gravediggers and there the limit is 30 years, but people aren't happy with that, they want it lowered to 20."

People living in areas where space has already run out are being forced to go to cemeteries in neighbouring authorities, and they are charged a premium for it - around three times more than the people who live there.
"It's getting more expensive for everyone though," adds Morris. "It's like the lease on a house, the less time there is left, the more expensive it becomes to buy."

The 1856 Burial Act made it illegal to disturb existing bodies. The benefits were twofold - it discouraged grave-robbing and slowed turnover. Churchyards were so overcrowded that bodies were being dug up after only a few months to make way for the next one.

Morris has been lobbying successive governments for years for a change in the law. In 2007 the Labour government indicated support for reusing graves older than 100 years but two years later, the project was shelved. "Death doesn't win votes," he says. "There is always something more urgent, but we are at crisis point."

Fingers crossed, I have plenty more time to make my choice.
But while the radical measures remain on the shelf, the situation is unresolved, illustrating two enduring truths - death is unavoidable and space is disappearing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14647010

My local cemetery is in a lovely location, and still accepts some burials, although most of the newer ones seem to be in the newer cemetery across the road.
I recently discovered St Ives cemetery, on a hillside above Porthmeor beach, with grand sea views. I wouldn't mind being planted there, and there does seem to be space...
(I found it when looking for the grave of primitive artist Alfred Wallis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Wallis )

Posted: 25-08-2011 22:18 Post subject:

I don't care much about what may happen to my body after death. I think cremation may be the most space-effective option, and if any member of the family wants to put my urn on their mantelpiece - fine.

Posted: 26-08-2011 11:09 Post subject:

I wanted to donate organs and leave my body for medical students to mess about with, but i was told i cant have both. Sad

Posted: 05-10-2011 08:54 Post subject:

Family mementos stolen from Newquay cemetery

A family from Newquay has been left devastated after mementos were stolen from their daughter's grave.
Fifteen sentimental gifts were taken from the grave of Lucy Webber at Newquay's Fairpark Cemetery.
Lucy's mother Julie discovered the thefts after visiting the grave still decorated with balloons to commemorate her daughter's 13th birthday.
Insp Ian Drummond-Smith from Newquay Police said it was an "utterly heartless crime".

Lucy died in a car accident on Goss Moor ten years ago.
Ms Webber said the items were "irreplaceable" and "part of the memories of having her and not having her".
"They weren't things of huge financial worth, we don't put things up there that are financially that expensive, but it's stuff that meant something to her or meant something to us, that were colours that she liked, or fairies and princesses that she always wanted to be," she added.

Ms Webber said: "Items were also stolen in 2007 but after a local newspaper report some were returned to a nearby grave and then to us."

Mr Drummond-Smith said it was a "really appalling crime" and he hoped that a public appeal may help in returning the items stolen.
"If we do find them, they will have the full weight of the law upon them," he added.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-15169348

This family is having trouble 'letting go'.
The grave reminds me of the child's grave I found last year:
http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1012405#1012405

Posted: 20-10-2011 15:38 Post subject:

A few years back my husband and I went on a business trip to Paris to meet a french Funeral Director, interested in our products for supporting gravestones. We had to visit one of Paris's largest graveyards. They certainly have the edge on British ones for Gothic horror with weeping statues/ lugubrious photos and large stone edifices with rusting iron gates leading to family crypts.

I was dismayed to see the practice of graves with plastic tape and notices stating that unless anyone related to the interred person came forward by such-and-such a date, they would be disinterred and the grave reused. It's a grim practice, forcing families to pay for the extended use of a plot. "Rest in Peace", becomes meaningless.

A bit off topic...........We also visited a Paris Funerary 'Supermarket' where a large showroom displayed every style of tombstone, urn, flower vase, brass plaque, flower arrangement etc. At first I thought it was tacky, but subsequently, changed my mind when faced with choosing such items myself at my local UK funeral parlour. Photos only, no prices and pressure to buy 'the best', and not what I could afford.

Excuse the black humour, but the funeral director was a young girl trainee, about 20, I would guess. When asked if embalming was entirely necessary for a cremation she replied, smiling sweetly " OH, NOT really, we have the fridges and that keeps them quite fresh". .........Bless her!

Posted: 20-10-2011 21:01 Post subject:

Posted: 20-10-2011 21:19 Post subject:

One of the problems with organ donation is that in the last few years, the quality of the organs donated are not what they were. More and more renal transplants are being halted because upon retrieval, the kidneys are showing early signs of deterioration - mostly the kind associated with heavy drinking. I started working in the cross matching lab 20 years ago and was there for about 8 years, this only happened once I think.

The worry is that when transplantation is mentioned to donors families, it's usually to a family that has lost a relatively young person, say in their 20's, as the organs should be in tip top condition for someone that age, but this is where we're seeing the effects of the binge drinking culture. Crying or Very sad

Posted: 21-10-2011 07:59 Post subject:

That's quite worrying, and rather sad.

Posted: 16-11-2011 12:46 Post subject:

I love wild flowers on graveyards. Sometimes I order flowersbypost and then I bring them to the local graveyard and put it on a grave nobody cares about. I think it is sad that there are often not so many wild flowers there. I think it would be good if there would be lots of colorful flowers.

Posted: 16-11-2011 15:43 Post subject:

That is an absolutely wonderful idea, Amy and very kind of you.

Posted: 24-11-2011 10:55 Post subject:

A sad tale:

Council strips war hero's grave bare in row over who owns the plot
By Simon Tomlinson
Last updated at 8:36 AM on 24th November 2011

Council workers have left a family distraught after stripping a war hero's grave bare in a row over who owns the plot.
Widow Judy Collins, 72, found decorations had been removed when she turned up to pay her respects.
In place of her late husband Harry's memorial was a mound of mud, she claimed.
Judy, who has visited the grave every week for the last 23 years, even found the cross bearing his name had been taken away.

The council said it removed the items because its records showed the grave was ‘unpurchased'.
They say they put up notices in the area saying graves at the cemetery not owned by relatives would be cleared away.
But the family of Mr Collins - who served as an army mechanic in the Second World War - insist they were never informed.
And they claim his plot was paid for by the Co-operative Funeral Directors when he was buried at the cemetery on May 25, 1988.

Daughter June Collins said her mother was on one of her weekly visits to the grave when she found the items were 'bagged up' in council sacks and left in a shed.
June said: 'We have been looking after the grave and putting flowers on it every week without fail for 23 years.
'My mum has been left very distressed by this. A wooden cross made by my sister Linda’s partner has been ruined.'

Miss Collins said the family met council officials and claim they were told there is no record of the grave plot being paid for.
She said the authority told the family that notifications were placed on 'unpaid' graves and letters sent to families.
June, from Portsmouth, Hants, added: 'We haven’t received anything from the council and there wasn’t a notice on my dad’s grave. It could have blown off.
'The council said they have no record of mum owning the grave and have it listed as ‘common’, which means they can bury someone else on it.'

The council confirmed the plot is one of 2,756 listed as 'unpurchased' at Warblington Cemetery, near Havant, Hants, and said decorations recently started appearing on it.
A spokeswoman for Havant Borough Council said: 'Prior to removing these items, we attached a sign to the area asking for those who had been visiting to make contact with us.
'After the time had lapsed for the visitors to make contact, the decorations were carefully removed and stored in a safe place.'

Graham Lymn, head of operations for The Southern Co-operative End of Life Services, said it has offered to pay half of the cost for purchasing the plot.
He said: 'We, nor the council, have been able to find records going back to 1988. It’s difficult to say what may have happened nearly 25 years ago.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2065368/Council-strips-war-heros-grave-bare-row-owns-plot.html#ixzz1ecBgYWgX

Posted: 10-02-2012 11:45 Post subject:

Daughter's grief as she visits mother's grave in cemetery… and finds someone else being buried in same plot
By Leon Watson
Last updated at 3:16 PM on 9th February 2012

A grieving daughter has told how she stumbled across cemetery workers burying another person in her mother's grave.
Carol Stone, 49, desperately halted a funeral with the hearse just yards from the plot after spotting a large funeral party gathered at her mother Joyce's graveside.

Heartbreakingly, she had gone to the cemetery to mark the second anniversary of her mother's death when she spotted the the mix-up.
And after rushing up to the plot, she was stunned to find cemetery workers had dug a shallow grave where her mother was already buried.
Memorial items left by family - including a wooden cross and potted plant - had also been thrown to the side by careless workers as another family prepared to bury their loved one on top of Joyce.

Ms Stone, from Warmley, Bristol, said: 'I am absolutely devastated. If I hadn't visited at that specific time another person would have been buried in the same plot as my mum.
'My dad has always wanted to be buried there and we had hoped the spot would be saved for him.

'A wooden cross my brother had made which had a photo our mum on it had just been pushed to the side.
'There was also a potted plant and some flowers I had left last week that had also been moved.'

Ms Stone quickly halted the ceremony before bungling cemetery staff realised their mistake.
And after checking with bosses, they realised that the person was meant to be buried in a plot three spaces away - not Joyce's.
Luckily the grave had not been dug deep enough to reach her mother's coffin - but the other person was due to be buried on top, in a shallower grave.

Family and friends of the person about to be buried then faced an upsetting 25 minute wait for a new plot to be dug before they could pay their final respects to their loved one.

Ms Stone added: 'I don't understand how the cemetery staff could have thought it was alright to bury another person there.
'Surely it's not normal practice to bury a stranger with someone who only died two years ago. When I complained to the person in charge he admitted they had made a mistake.
'I was so upset to have to watch the soil go back in - it was like going back two years and having to go through it all over again.
'I am still dealing with my mother's death and this has just opened another can of worms.
'The fact that it was the second anniversary of her death just made it all the worse. I'm not looking to gain anything from this, but simply want to know that it won't happen again.'

To add insult to injury, Ms Stone can no longer place anything by her mother's grave for a year - so 'the ground can settle'.

etc...

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2098712/Daughters-grief-visits-mothers-grave-cemetery-finds-buried-plot.html#ixzz1lyT1Fr1B

Posted: 26-02-2012 20:56 Post subject:

The Cadoxton Murder Stone

This page has a nice photo of the Murder Stone. I first read about this stone and its story as a child. Being a precocious reader, I was able to read books for which I was really too young and I often gave myself nightmares! Laughing

Posted: 26-02-2012 23:40 Post subject:

If anyone is interested in graveyards and what information can be gleaned from the grave stones the Edinburgh Fortean Society has a talk next month on Tuesday the 13th.

Dead men do tell tales...

- meetings with remarkable (albeit deceased) men...
the evidence from Edinburgh's gravestones, by Dave Fiddimore

Edinburgh Fortean Society, Edinburgh, UK

http://www.edinburghforteansociety.org.uk

Posted: 29-02-2012 01:49 Post subject:

My brother has done a thorough job researching our family tree. As part of this we visited various graveyards and municipal cemeteries around Leeds, Wharefdale and out near Thirsk. All the rural ones had different atmospheres, from peaceful to edgy to plain bleak and lonely.

In Leeds Becket St Cemetery is well known for being a urban nature area, and for the varying levels of natural succession! In comparison, Harehills cemetery is much better maintained. It was there we had a minor fortean event one afternoon. Looking for a particular family grave, but with only a rough idea of its location we split up and started quartering the rows of gravestones. Over ten minutes or so we moved further and further away from one another, until he shouted over to call it a day. We walked towards each other on one of the paths. He shook his head and said we should move on, then looked to the side of the path and said 'ah, there it is'. We had stopped right next to it.

Also need to put in a quick word for Undercliffe, Bradford. Don't think its been mentioned on this thread. All the atmosphere you will ever need!