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akaWiintermoon Great Old One Joined: 04 Jan 2002 Total posts: 994 Location: Southampton, Hampshire, UK. Age: 39 Gender: Female |
 Posted: 06-04-2007 22:31 Post subject: |
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| rynner wrote: |
Yes, very interesting, but it would have been far more convincing if there wasn't a whole raft of books and music CDs being marketed on the strength of it....
rynner " I want to believe, but..." |
Lol.  I actually first found from a link on the front page of the FT site (Unexplained Mysteries), then a link from there. It then gave the whole story but the link provided to read it was dead!
I Googled 'Pam Reynolds nde' and there was loads of links, and sites, that one just happened to be at the top. |
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| Posted: 06-04-2007 23:25 Post subject: |
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Documentary The Day I Died featuring the Pam Reynolds' case.
Sorry aka - if you're on dial up it might take a while to stream! |
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| escargot1 Joined: 24 Aug 2001 Total posts: 17896 Location: Farkham Hall Age: 4 Gender: Female |
| Posted: 07-04-2007 11:57 Post subject: |
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Fro, you're a wonder sometimes.  |
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| Pietro_Mercurios Heuristically Challenged
Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 24-08-2007 14:12 Post subject: |
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Science on verge of admitting that "Out of Body Experiences" actually occur? Of course they've got a perfectly rational explanation for it all and they can even replicate the experience in the lab.
| Quote: | http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6960612.stm
Out-of-body experience recreated
BBC News Online. 23 August 2007
Experts have found a way to trigger an out-of-body experience in volunteers.
The experiments, described in the Science journal, offer a scientific explanation for a phenomenon experienced by one in 10 people.
Two teams used virtual reality goggles to con the brain into thinking the body was located elsewhere.
The visual illusion plus the feel of their real bodies being touched made volunteers sense that they had moved outside of their physical bodies.
The researchers say their findings could have practical applications, such as helping take video games to the next level of virtuality so the players feel as if they are actually inside the game.
Clinically, surgeons might also be able to perform operations on patients thousands of miles away by controlling a robotic virtual self.
Teleported
For some, out-of-body experiences or OBEs occurs spontaneously, while for others it is linked to dangerous circumstances, a near-death experience, a dream-like state or use of alcohol or drugs.
One theory is that it is down to how people perceive their own body - those unhappy or less in touch with their body are more likely to have an OBE.
But the two teams, from University College London, UK, and the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Lausanne, believe there is a neurological explanation.
Their work suggests a disconnection between the brain circuits that process visual and touch sensory information may thus be responsible for some OBEs.
In the Swiss experiments, the researchers asked volunteers to stand in front of a camera while wearing video-display goggles.
Through these goggles, the volunteers could see a camera view of their own back - a three-dimensional "virtual own body" that appeared to be standing in front of them.
When the researchers stroked the back of the volunteer with a pen, the volunteer could see their virtual back being stroked either simultaneously or with a time lag.
The volunteers reported that the sensation seemed to be caused by the pen on their virtual back, rather than their real back, making them feel as if the virtual body was their own rather than a hologram.
Volunteers
Even when the camera was switched to film the back of a mannequin being stroked rather than their own back, the volunteers still reported feeling as if the virtual mannequin body was their own.
And when the researchers switched off the goggles, guided the volunteers back a few paces, and then asked them to walk back to where they had been standing, the volunteers overshot the target, returning nearer to the position of their "virtual self".
Dr Henrik Ehrsson, who led the UCL research, used a similar set-up in his tests and found volunteers had a physiological response - increased skin sweating - when they felt their virtual self was being threatened - appearing to be hit with a hammer.
Dr Ehrsson said: "This experiment suggests that the first-person visual perspective is critically important for the in-body experience. In other words, we feel that our self is located where the eyes are."
Dr Susan Blackmore, psychologist and visiting lecturer at the University of the West of England, said: "This has at last brought OBEs into the lab and tested one of the main theories of how they occur.
"Scientists have long suspected that the clue to these extraordinary, and sometimes life-changing, experiences lies in disrupting our normal illusion of being a self behind our eyes, and replacing it with a new viewpoint from above or behind."
How it's done, diagram. |
Even Dr Susan 'I used to be quite good at the tarot, until I stopped believing' Blackmore, believes it now. At least, until Professor Dawkins says different. 
The comments about practical applications are v.interesting to say the least. Throwing one's voice is one thing, but projecting one's 'consciousness? Why does the closing scene of eXistenZ, spring to mind?  |
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| lupinwick Joined: 24 Sep 2005 Total posts: 1883 |
| Posted: 23-09-2007 10:34 Post subject: |
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I used to be able to induce it as a kid by lying down and thinking that I was swinging along the length of my body (and trying to fool the body into it). After a while I'd get the feelings of dizziness and then after a sudden lurch of the stomach (same kind of thing you get in a car going downhill quite fast) I'd "pop free" and be looking down my body from a viewpoint of just above the forehead.
Of course it may all have been a childhood conceit but I do clearly remember seeing events in the house which I couldn't have seen. |
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| rynner Location: Still above sea level Gender: Male |
| Posted: 03-12-2008 10:12 Post subject: |
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This may be relevent:
Scientists fool people into thinking mannequin's body was their own
People can be tricked into thinking they inhabit a different body to their own, scientists have shown for the first time.
By Matthew Moore
Last Updated: 7:58AM GMT 03 Dec 2008
The "body swapping" illusion fooled volunteers into perceiving that the bodies of mannequins and other people were their own, using a combination of video goggles and tactile stimulation.
The experiment throws new light on how humans establish a sense of self – suggesting that sight is more important than internal signals from muscles – and could have ramifications for treatments of body image disorders such as anorexia.
Swedish scientists fitted the head of a shop dummy with cameras connected to small screens placed in goggles worn by the subject, so that they saw what the dummy "saw".
When a scientist touched the stomach of both with sticks, the subject could see that the mannequin's stomach was being touched while feeling but not seeing a similar sensation on his or her own stomach.
As a result, the subject developed a powerful sensation that the mannequin's body was his or her own, the scientists said.
"This shows how easy it is to change the brain's perception of the physical self," said Henrik Ehrsson of the Karolinska Institute medical university, who led the project.
"By manipulating sensory impressions, it's possible to fool the self not only out of its body but into other bodies too."
In another experiment, the camera was mounted on to another person's head. When this person and the subject turned towards each other to shake hands, the subject perceived the camera-wearer's body as his or her own.
The strength of the illusion was confirmed by the subjects' exhibiting stress reactions when a knife was held to the camera wearer's arm but not when it was held to their own.
The illusion also worked even when the two people differed in appearance or were of different sexes.
Dr Ehrsson said that the findings could be used to create new therapies for people with abnormal body image, as well as to confront bigotry by allowing people to identify with people of different races and sexes. It could also be used to improve robotics technology and even virtual reality video games.
The study was published in the online, open-access journal PLoS ONE.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/science/3543741/Scientists-fool-people-into-thinking-mannequins-body-was-their-own.html |
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| tracyk3337 |
| Posted: 01-04-2009 10:17 Post subject: Re: My Out of body experience/s |
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| Poppa19 wrote: | My first experience of this phenomena occured Xmas eve 1977.
I had been out for a drink with my wormates from the mine i worked at, i had a great night but was not drunk. It started to rain so i phoned a cab which came, and i got in the front passenger seat, and tried to clip the seat belt (It would not lock).. We had travelled approx 3/4 of a mile, there was a white opal car in front of us, then suddenly a drunk driver coming the opposite way sideswiped the opal causing the taxi i was in to swerve up the kerb, and we hit a telegraph pole.
I was launched from the cab through the windshield narrowly missing the pole, then i landed undeneath an hedge, (please note the events explained above about the actual collision i found out from the police)..
I was of course out cold having suffered a severe blow to the head, and my face was chopped liver. I was taken to hospital, and to the operating room where i received several pints of blood, and was operated on by two surgeons trying to save my life, during this time my heart stopped twice, and they had to restart it using the machine..
While this was going on i was above the table looking down on events from i assume was the ceiling. I saw in great clarity exactly what they were doing, i could hear their words clearly, and later on waking i quoted the doctors verbatim, and told them i had died twice.
Needless to say they were amazed but to me it seemed the most natural thing in the world..During the experience i felt aware that someone was with me, and i felt totally at peace with no fear of dying, in fact i was sad to know i had to return to my body. Since then i have had several OB's and to me it's a normal thing...Some argue that maybe i was not totally unconcsious but in actual fact i was Clinically dead, i could not have seen what was going on with my physical eyes because my face was so cut up, and my eyes so swollen it would have been impossible, yet i described to these doctors the exact procedures they were doing..Those like myself that experience this are lucky, and i believe that at sometime in our lives we all experience this but not all are aware of it happening, i can however clue you in to when it may be occuring, sometimes when you are in bed, relaxed, and comfortable your entire body may suddenly jump, this is it happening, the knack is, is not to panic but simply let it happen. This is my story, it is completely true, and i hope it may help some...Thank you[/i] |
That account is so similar to mine! The feeling of it being completely natural - I wasn't frightened at all at the time. I only became frightened when I spoke about it to the staff afterwards and could see the look on their faces.
I also agree about the "jolt" thing when you are falling asleep, or half awake. It feels so natural - only now I know what it is.
One thing about the experience - people report this kind of experience all the time. What do the hospital staff make of it? Do they find it easy to dismiss/explain unless the details are particularly vivid and unexplainable in any other way? Were they scared when you spoke about it to them? |
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| rynner2 What a Cad!
Great Old One Joined: 13 Dec 2008 Total posts: 21365 Location: Under the moon Gender: Male |
| Posted: 07-10-2009 20:40 Post subject: |
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Looks like science is homing in on explanations:
Out of your head: Leaving the body behind
07 October 2009 by Anil Ananthaswamy
Magazine issue 2729.
THE young man woke feeling dizzy. He got up and turned around, only to see himself still lying in bed. He shouted at his sleeping body, shook it, and jumped on it. The next thing he knew he was lying down again, but now seeing himself standing by the bed and shaking his sleeping body. Stricken with fear, he jumped out of the window. His room was on the third floor. He was found later, badly injured.
What this 21-year-old had just experienced was an out-of-body experience, one of the most peculiar states of consciousness. It was probably triggered by his epilepsy (Journal of Neurology, Neurosurgery and Psychiatry, vol 57, p 838). "He didn't want to commit suicide," says Peter Brugger, the young man's neuropsychologist at University Hospital Zurich in Switzerland. "He jumped to find a match between body and self. He must have been having a seizure."
In the 15 years since that dramatic incident, Brugger and others have come a long way towards understanding out-of-body experiences. They have narrowed down the cause to malfunctions in a specific brain area and are now working out how these lead to the almost supernatural experience of leaving your own body and observing it from afar. They are also using out-of-body experiences to tackle a long-standing problem: how we create and maintain a sense of self.
Dramatised to great effect by such authors as Dostoevsky, Wilde, de Maupassant and Poe - some of whom wrote from first-hand knowledge - out-of-body experiences are usually associated with epilepsy, migraines, strokes, brain tumours, drug use and even near-death experiences. It is clear, though, that people with no obvious neurological disorders can have an out-of-body experience. By some estimates, about 5 per cent of healthy people have one at some point in their lives.
etc...
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20427291.100-out-of-your-head-leaving-the-body-behind.html?DCMP=NLC-nletter&nsref=mg20427291.100 |
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| Dingo667 I'm strange...but true Joined: 27 Aug 2004 Total posts: 1977 Location: Deep in the Fens, UK Age: 46 Gender: Female |
| Posted: 09-10-2009 21:53 Post subject: |
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Fine, now we know the workings behind OOB experiences, now they need to explain rationally how people can observe themselves and other things around them whilst unconscious/sleeping/having seizures.
Its a little like saying: "Ghosts explained because we found that we see them with our eyes, hence our retina from where their impression is projected into the occipital lobes..."
But what are ghosts...and OOBE's? |
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| rynner2 What a Cad!
Great Old One Joined: 13 Dec 2008 Total posts: 21365 Location: Under the moon Gender: Male |
| Posted: 18-02-2011 10:28 Post subject: |
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AAAS: Out-of-body experiences are just the product of a confused mind
Out-of-body experiences are not "spiritual" phenomenon but tricks played by a confused mind, claim scientists who fooled people into thinking they inhabited the body of a virtual human.
By Richard Alleyne, Science Correspondent in Washington 7:00AM GMT 18 Feb 2011
Throughout history people have described how they have floated from their bodies and looked back at themselves, often when close to death or on the operating table.
The accounts have been so vivid that they are often cited as proof of the existence of the soul or Heaven.
But scientists now claim they have dispelled this myth by artificially creating an out-of-body experience using computers and cameras.
They believe the feeling of detachment occurs when the brain becomes confused by conflict between the senses - and is not proof of any "spiritual dimension" to existence.
Professor Olaf Blanke and his team at University of Geneva said they had "immersed" volunteers into the body of an avatar - a computer generated version of themselves.
Volunteers were asked to wear virtual reality goggles and then stand in front of a camera.
The subjects saw the cameras view of their back on screens in the goggles, computer enhanced to create a 3D virtual version or avatar.
When their back was stroked with a pen so was the virtual avatar in front of them, making them think that the virtual body was in fact their own.
In this way people became confused about their real and the virtual self - even though they were effectively two metres apart from each other.
Prof Blanke, who presented his findings at the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) conference in Washington, said: "Through vision and touch they lost themselves.
"They start thinking that the avatar is their own body. We created a partial out-of-body experience.
"We were able to dissociate touch and vision and make people think that their body was two metres in front of them."
He said by inducing the out-of-body experience it proved it was more like a brain malfunction when sight, touch and balance become confused.
Dr Blanke said: "Instead of it being a spiritual thing, it is the brain being confused. Why do we think that it is spiritual when we don't think a phantom limb when one is lost is an example of the paranormal."
To take the research further they used sensors connected to the skull to find the areas of the brain most involved in deciding where it belongs.
These were found to be temporo-parietal and frontal regions - parts at the front and right side of the brain responsible for integrating touch and vision.
If these were damaged or somehow short-circuited it could account for the feeling of floating above your body often associated with an out-of-body experiences.
Aside from explaining out-of-body experiences, the work could have more commercial applications, said the researcher.
The technique could be used to make computer games even more exciting or projecting people into robot soldiers or surgeons.
They could even be used to treat eating disorders linked with a flawed body image, such as anorexia.
Out-of-body experiences most often occur during sleep or waking as well as through drug use, trauma and under anaesthetic.
They effect around one in 10 of the population.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/8327304/AAAS-Out-of-body-experiences-are-just-the-product-of-a-confused-mind.html |
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| Ghostisfort Great Old One Joined: 04 Jul 2009 Total posts: 770 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 24-08-2011 23:48 Post subject: |
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The most amazing aspect of these experiments is the way that the scientists manage to ignore what must be a library of books written on the subject over centuries.
Had they bothered to read anything, they would realise that confusion is not a prerequisite of OOBE. Anyone who has actually experienced OOBE or NDE which is similar, would not be impressed.
I sometimes wonder just how far the sceptics are prepared to go to detach themselves from reality and distance themselves from the experiences of normal human beings?
My own first OOBE took place many years ago at my GP's surgery. I was there because I was feeling ill after giving up smoking. I left my body and found myself in a far corner of the room observing the doctor speaking to me.
My son had an OOBE/NDE after a motor accident and described in detail the rescue from above the scene of the accident whilst his body was still trapped unconscious in the car.
Years later, I found that I could achieve the same state whilst sitting in a comfortable chair with my eyes closed. I'm aware of both my body and aware of the place I travel to. Very similar to remote viewing experiences.
Not difficult, anyone can do it if they are prepared to suspend their scepticism and take part in an experiment. There was a time when science was done this way. |
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| kamalktk Great Old One Joined: 05 Feb 2011 Total posts: 705 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 25-08-2011 12:18 Post subject: |
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| Ghostisfort wrote: | The most amazing aspect of these experiments is the way that the scientists manage to ignore what must be a library of books written on the subject over centuries.
Had they bothered to read anything, they would realise that confusion is not a prerequisite of OOBE. Anyone who has actually experienced OOBE or NDE which is similar, would not be impressed. |
They are not saying the person is confused and people are thinking  and can't rememer their mum's name or something , but that the brain is mistaking sensory input. Only the part of the brain responsible for connecting sensory stimuli to locations is confused. |
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| Ghostisfort Great Old One Joined: 04 Jul 2009 Total posts: 770 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 25-08-2011 23:40 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | ...But scientists now claim they have dispelled this myth by artificially creating an out-of-body experience using computers and cameras.
They believe the feeling of detachment occurs when the brain becomes confused by conflict between the senses - and is not proof of any "spiritual dimension" to existence...
...They believe the feeling of detachment occurs when the brain becomes confused by conflict between the senses - and is not proof of any "spiritual dimension" to existence...
...When their back was stroked with a pen so was the virtual avatar in front of them, making them think that the virtual body was in fact their own.
In this way people became confused about their real and the virtual self - even though they were effectively two metres apart from each other... |
A simulation of OOBE is used and because this simulation has characteristics that appear to be like OOBE a quantum leap is made, that this must be the answer to all other OOBE's. I think this is called begging the question?
A question presents itself as to why it was necessary to use a simulation when using the real thing would be comparatively easy, albeit not so controllable?
Can it be that the researchers simply wanted to reinforce an agenda?
I'm not sure what to call this, but it's certainly not science.
Can someone please explain to me why it's so important to remove "any "spiritual dimension" to existence"? |
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| kamalktk Great Old One Joined: 05 Feb 2011 Total posts: 705 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 26-08-2011 00:16 Post subject: |
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| Ghostisfort wrote: | | Quote: | ...But scientists now claim they have dispelled this myth by artificially creating an out-of-body experience using computers and cameras.
They believe the feeling of detachment occurs when the brain becomes confused by conflict between the senses - and is not proof of any "spiritual dimension" to existence...
...They believe the feeling of detachment occurs when the brain becomes confused by conflict between the senses - and is not proof of any "spiritual dimension" to existence...
...When their back was stroked with a pen so was the virtual avatar in front of them, making them think that the virtual body was in fact their own.
In this way people became confused about their real and the virtual self - even though they were effectively two metres apart from each other... |
A simulation of OOBE is used and because this simulation has characteristics that appear to be like OOBE a quantum leap is made, that this must be the answer to all other OOBE's. I think this is called begging the question?
A question presents itself as to why it was necessary to use a simulation when using the real thing would be comparatively easy, albeit not so controllable?
Can it be that the researchers simply wanted to reinforce an agenda?
I'm not sure what to call this, but it's certainly not science.
Can someone please explain to me why it's so important to remove "any "spiritual dimension" to existence"? |
If "real OOBE"'s were producible on demand to study, then scientists would not have to produce them to study the phenomenon. Given your previous statement about being able to do so, I would encourage you to proffer yourself to the researchers so the understanding of OOBE's can be advanced. |
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| Ghostisfort Great Old One Joined: 04 Jul 2009 Total posts: 770 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 26-08-2011 11:41 Post subject: |
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My wife did take part in a research project some time ago, to do with remote viewing online. As I remember, she got some quite surprising results. I can't recall who it was for, but I will enquire.
A seemingly fundamental component of OOBE and other paranormal events is that they are almost exclusively personal experiences and therefore do not lend themselves to repeatable, on-demand scientific study. The idea that they can be denied for this reason is flawed in that it supposes that science knows everything.
Remote viewing on the other hand, does lend itself to statistical analysis and this was carried out by the American military and others like the one my wife was involved with. As I've said above, OOBE and remote viewing are very much part of the same effect, with the RV sometimes having the ability to move about out of body.
Using the experiment in the article above as a means of debunking the paranormal is counterproductive in that it begs for the science to also be debunked, something not difficult that leads science into disrepute. It's often forgotten by sceptics that debunking is a two edged sword.
As for my own contribution, I have posted on another thread about my journey to Jupiter and one of the big surprises likely to be encountered by the NASA, Juno probe.....we will see? |
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