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| tang-malow |
 Posted: 19-01-2002 17:47 Post subject: |
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| that explains chris evans |
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intaglioreally Well what am I now? Joined: 14 Oct 2001 Total posts: 2641 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 20-01-2002 01:28 Post subject: |
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I think this Red-Heads = Neanderthal idea is a bit old and comes from the early inference that celts were the earliest inhabitants of UK and Eire. Isn't there a Sherlock Holmes story that mentions it in passing? The Erse legends certainly say that before men came to the inhabitants were the tuatha de Danaan who were tall and fair (of face) but that they had displaced the Fir Bolg who were short and dark.
A bit of synchronicity in this reply, about 5 mins ago I mentioned the Fir Bolg in a reply to Helen |
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| FelixAntonius Outsider.
Great Old One Joined: 08 Aug 2001 Total posts: 1097 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 20-01-2002 21:27 Post subject: |
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| intaglo, are you thinking of the short story: "The Grisly Folk" by (I think) Algernon Blackwood? |
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| intaglioreally Well what am I now? Joined: 14 Oct 2001 Total posts: 2641 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 21-01-2002 04:15 Post subject: |
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| could be, i an a very little brain of bare |
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| Anonymous |
| Posted: 21-01-2002 09:49 Post subject: |
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| Theres a welsh guy who writes into FT every so often thst reckons Gingerness, left handedness and socialism are traits associated with neanderthal genes. The Fir Bolg thing is usually taken to refer to the shorter, darker population group found in western Ireland, the "Black Irish", who had the run of the place till the celts turned up. |
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| tang-malow |
| Posted: 21-01-2002 10:12 Post subject: |
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werent the picts dark skinned also?? they had run of scotland till the irish turned up and threw them off cliffs for their secret of heather ale, which unfortunately died with the last pict  |
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| Anonymous |
| Posted: 21-01-2002 15:48 Post subject: |
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I was earlier talking on another thread, where someone mentioned that maybe the irish encountered neandertals when they came there. Interesting that people will blame both Australia and Ireland on neandertals. But I guess that would explain all the red hair the irish have 
I do however remember reading an article saying that the neandetals since living in northern europe probably were blonde and red-haired. Not dark haired and dark skinned like people usually imagine them. |
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| tang-malow |
| Posted: 21-01-2002 20:52 Post subject: |
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| the ancient irish and scots could very well of been related to neanderthals. that could explain theyre physical differences and why the romans feared them so much, they even built hadrians wall to keep them out of england. |
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| Anonymous |
| Posted: 22-01-2002 10:10 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | the ancient irish and scots could very well of been related to neanderthals. that could explain theyre physical differences and why the romans feared them so much, they even built hadrians wall to keep them out of england |
Tang- What physical differences are these? The romans didnt fear the scots+irish in particular they just never quite got round to conquering them as there wasnt much wealth in Scotland to be had and the landscape didnt suit their economic system. Also the conquest of Britain was the highwater mark of the empire's expansionist phase. Hadrians wall was in part a defensive structure but its only about 8 feet tall, recent historians think of it more as a civilising influence on both sides of the border, a kind of "roman shopping mall" |
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| tang-malow |
| Posted: 22-01-2002 10:25 Post subject: |
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| durriti wrote: |
Tang- What physical differences are these? The romans didnt fear the scots+irish in particular they just never quite got round to conquering them as there wasnt much wealth in Scotland to be had and the landscape didnt suit their economic system. Also the conquest of Britain was the highwater mark of the empire's expansionist phase. Hadrians wall was in part a defensive structure but its only about 8 feet tall, recent historians think of it more as a civilising influence on both sides of the border, a kind of "roman shopping mall" |
The picts where supposedly shorter than the current Scots and also had darker skin. (i hope the word scots doesnt offend you!)
I think you will also find that the Romans did infact fear the picts and there are many legends in which whole legions disappeared without a trace in Caledonia.
Hadrian’s Wall was also 6.5 meters tall.. Not 8 foot! it had a 9 meter long ditch dug in front of it and behind the first wall there was another wall built so roman warriors could patrol incase the northern barbarians attacked. There was also forts along the wall that held roman warriors who’s job was to kill anyone who attacked the wall.. there was supposidly over 100 sodiers posted at each fort and roman soldiers where also paid quite well so i doubt they where there to sell cosmetics in this mall of yours. I have been to Hadrian’s Wall many times and I don’t think it was a "roman shopping mall". pfft I suppose the Roman Colleseum was an ancient carpark??
Last edited by Guest on 22-01-2002 10:55; edited 1 time in total |
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| Anonymous |
| Posted: 22-01-2002 11:59 Post subject: |
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. | Quote: | | The picts where supposedly shorter than the current Scots and also had darker skin |
supposed by who? Roman authors normally refer to them as "caledonii" and describe them as tall and ginga. Even if they had been small and dark there is no evidence at all for Neanderthal pigmentation, so it would prove nothing.
| Quote: | | I think you will also find that the Romans did infact fear the picts and there are many legends in which whole legions disappeared without a trace in Caledonia. |
The romans made many successful expeditions not just beyond hadrians wall but beyond the Antonine wall as far north as Perthshire. Missing 9th (5th?) legion did return to York and later got anhilated in Germania, thats the only legend I know of.
I dont deny there were soldiers there but the main use of the wall was as a centre of "romanitas", the Antonine wall serving a more defensive purchase. |
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| tang-malow |
| Posted: 24-01-2002 03:57 Post subject: |
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| durriti wrote: |
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supposed by who? Roman authors normally refer to them as "caledonii" and describe them as tall and ginga. Even if they had been small and dark there is no evidence at all for Neanderthal pigmentation, so it would prove nothing.
The romans made many successful expeditions not just beyond hadrians wall but beyond the Antonine wall as far north as Perthshire. Missing 9th (5th?) legion did return to York and later got anhilated in Germania, thats the only legend I know of.
I dont deny there were soldiers there but the main use of the wall was as a centre of "romanitas", the Antonine wall serving a more defensive purchase. |
oh is that so? is this map wrong then??
look at this map
I was always under the impression that hadrians wall was built first to defend the romans against the picts and then after they where brave enuff to venture further forward they built the Antonine wall .. but then again what do i know?!? youve obviously looked into this subject alot more than i have, i bet you have watched Gladiator more than 3 times.
I think you will find the Romans referred to the picts as "picts" as the word pict was given to them by the Romans, the word pict is roman and means "the painted ones" as they had a habit of covering their bodies with tattoos (this is where the makers of brave heart got the idea of a blue faces William Wallace) The picts where known to the Irish as the Cruithne and I don’t know where you read that they where tall and "ginga" <--- is this a racist derogatory term for people with ginger hair, just like "abo" is a derogatory term for Australian Aborigines?? I resent that remark as many members of my family are of the carrot crunching persuasion!!!
Anyways ive always been told that the picts where small and dark skinned by local historians, having visited many pictish stone circles and rock carvings and i have also read this in books and even in storys my mother used to tell me as a bairn to make me goto sleep. She used to tell me the story of the heather ale and how the last 2 picts came to die, in the story they are described as smaller than a normal man with dark skin. Im sure your tall and "ginga" friends you are talking about are the Celts who where and still are Tall and very very "ginga"
The point i raised about how the picts MAY have neanderthal heritage may have no evidence but the fact that noone knows where the picts came from and the fact that they didnt resemble any other race in the surrounding area does make the mind wander and hey this is a fortean webpage... i think it is probably the best place to my ideas of where these guys came from, sorry if that annoys or offends you.
| Quote: | by Kym ní Dhoireann
The Picts are a people of great speculation and controversy, with amazing outlandish claims made about them by Pagan and non-Pagan alike, Scot and non-Scot. It seems that many people think that there is so little known about the Picts that we can make up anything we want. This is not new for, while Margaret Murray (The God of the Witches), made the idea that the Faerie Folks were really small, dark-skinned remains of the Picts popular, she did not invent this. In the Historia Norvegiae a twelfth-century Icelander described them as "pygmies who 'did wonders in the mornings and the evenings but at mid-day lost their strength and hid in holes in the ground'" (Laing and Laing The Picts and the Scots pg 1)
http://cyberpict.net/sgathan/essays/picts.htm
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pygmies? arent they tall and ginga??
Last edited by Guest on 24-01-2002 04:06; edited 1 time in total |
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| Anonymous |
| Posted: 24-01-2002 13:51 Post subject: |
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| Theres nowt wrong with speculating, if you dont mind it when someone thinks the speculation is daft. You are right that there is no evidence that the Picts dont have neanderthal blood, as you could also say abut the short dark romans. The contemporary sources about the picts are sparce and contradictory. Its quite interesting that on that map the Romans were so scared of the picts they only invaded the farmland and left the picts with the views. No wonder they were short with the diet youd get off farming the highlands. Im not saying the romans didnt use the term Picts, but its used interchangeably with Caledonii. Im not being funny but i would be genuinely interested in any contemporary sources which describe the Picts as dark, I think I remeber Bede describing them that way (not sure). 12th century Icelandic chronicles dont fill me with confidence as they are describing people who lived 100s of miles away, 100s of years ago (the pictish kingdom united with the scots in the 800s and Viking incursions meant the Pictish language was replaced with Gaelic and Norse very quickly) . |
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| tang-malow |
| Posted: 24-01-2002 13:57 Post subject: |
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| where did u read that they where tall and had ginger hair? |
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| Anonymous |
| Posted: 24-01-2002 14:18 Post subject: |
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| Yerman the roman who toured Britain b4 the conquest, various roman stuff, sorry for vaguenes but at work. Look up soon |
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