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Posted: 19-05-2005 23:26 Post subject:

Fascinating thread, for me - I could argue about this sort of thing all day.

Posted: 20-05-2005 01:13 Post subject:

Sundog, I certainly appreciate your point of view on this, and may I offer my condolences on the death of your child. What struck me about your experience you described in that thread is the exquisite way you described what you saw...the surreal-ness to everything. It reminded me very much of something that happened to me:

http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21642

Posted: 06-06-2005 22:45 Post subject:

Redhead – (sorry for long delay – very busy) Thank you for condolences, but no condolences are necessary. I hope you will understand when I say that, even though I would never wish that pain on anyone else, John’s death was the best thing that ever happened to me, in the sense that it was the richest, deepest, most powerful, most eye-opening experience I will probably ever have. I would never choose to go through it, but I am grateful for it.

Re: your story - - What strikes me is that, while it would be easy to dismiss your experience as “just a dream”, (1) you received guidance at a time you sorely needed it; (2) the guidance turned out to be good guidance, and was probably not what you would have wanted to be told; and (3) the experience had an extraordinary quality to it that is hard to convey in words but that convinces you it was not just a dream. To me, even though in one respect this was clearly a dream, these factors also put it into the same category as “spiritual experiences” or whatever term we should use here.

I once related my “enlightenment” story to a sympathetic friend and I was agonizing over whether or not it was real - - meaning: was this vision or sense I received just a product of my own mind or was it really imparted to me from some “higher plane”? My friend’s reply has stuck with me ever since – she said that she thought this was an artificial distinction. Let’s assume it was just a product of my mind. Isn’t it extraordinary that one’s own mind is capable of delivering a healing experience, much needed guidance, and a radically different perspective that is way outside the realm of anything one has thought or believed before, and of making it so completely compelling that one feels and believes in the experience down to the core of one’s soul? This would mean that one’s mind is by nature able to tap into some resource that has profound emotional, spiritual, and transformational power. Is this really any different than saying that the experience was imparted from a higher plane? To her the only real question was: what did you take away from it?

At this point, our honorable skeptics Timble and Krobone would probably weigh in and say: ah, but that still doesn’t tell us whether or not these experiences are delusional. My response would be: you are correct. If I reported that I saw ball lightning today, or a UFO, or an angel, or a pink Cadillac convertible, we’d have a similar problem proving whether my sensory perceptions and my interpretation of them corresponded to anything real. All I can say, if I trust my senses and my mind, is that I know what I saw. More to the point maybe is whether these experiences tell us anything valid about the nature and purpose of our lives? And my response as in my previous post would be: there is and can be no proof, you have to choose whether these ideas seems like a reasonable framework on which to base your life, just like you have to choose whether to believe that honesty is the best policy and virtue is its own reward. Rational arguments can be made on both sides of such questions.

Even having had an experience, one can go either way. One can follow the reductionist path and convince oneself that there was nothing of substance there, or one can follow one’s heart and accept what appears to be a gift of grace. I would submit that, as long as you are reasonably sure you’re not fooling yourself, richer rewards are found by following your heart.

I wanted to go back to some of the earlier posts – why are some saved from death, why are some allowed to live, why do some die young - -

I don’t find it convincing that there is a pre-ordained destiny for each of us, that we choose or are chosen before birth for a specific purpose, that the victims of the tsunami were intended to die, etc. Even if that were true, none of us can know our purpose here or would be agreeable to an early tragic death, so it’s essentially a meaningless idea on this plane of existence. My belief is that, while it appears that assistance and insight is at least sporadically available from some higher plane, whose exact nature eludes us, possibly by intent, there is still a big element of random chance. S**t happens. Some seed lands in fertile ground and some on the pavement and some gets swept away, etc. Some that are deserving die, and some that are undeserving live to a ripe old age. We can’t change that, and if there is any purpose to it we cannot know it. But within that constraint, what counts is what we make out of what we have to work with. Our choices often have a surprisingly large impact on other lives. Therefore in the big picture we each make contributions toward the larger “good” (life, creation, health, love, justice) and “bad” (destruction, disease, selfishness, war, injustice). Regardless of whether all this was set up by a mindful creator or resulted from innate forces of nature, we clearly have been given free will and collective control over our collective outcome. The stakes are real and getting higher as our powers increase. Banking on large scale intervention by some omnipotent deity is not a good bet, if for no other reason than the presumptuousness of assuming we can know what its intentions and schedule are. Therefore it is important to choose sides and take the constructive steps that one can within one’s limits. The summation of small individual acts (e.g. of kindness, compassion, conscience) can trump the grand actions of world leaders. This has been demonstrated several times throughout history and is therefore a good basis for keeping the faith during dark times. A long life is not necessarily to be sought (e.g. my 99 year-old grandmother advised against it) - it is the quality of a life that counts.

Life after death and/or life before death? A moot point as far as I’m concerned. Personally, the thought of being me forever or of there being a me forever sounds pretty tiring and pointless. I’d rather have whatever is left over be recycled. Something more interesting and useful would surely come of that. Maybe NDEs are the pathway to the cosmic compost pile.

Sorry for the long post – I told you I could argue about this stuff all day.

Posted: 07-06-2005 14:01 Post subject:

Sundog, I think you DO become recycled. It is my belief you can have another life after you die, until you learn all the lessons you need to learn, or choose to learn.

Maybe in your next life, you will be a homeless person who wanders the streets for years. The purpose of that? Well obviously to learn from that experience, but I am sure it goes much deeper than even that. Maybe as that homeless person you will be in the right place at the right time and change the world or save a life and that single moment was your whole purpose of being here.

I forgot to mention this before, but I have also come to believe that the feeling of dejavu is related to all of this. Remember when I said I think everyone has a sort of blueprint of their life before they are even born and we choose what is on that blueprint and how we will live? I think when we experience dejavu now, we are remembering a small microsecond of information that we put into our own blueprints and that it was embedded into our cells when we were born. In other words, it is assurance we are on the right track in this life.
Just a thought.
Smile

Posted: 07-06-2005 16:06 Post subject:

Fascinating discussion, folks.

Reality is never going to be empirical- but... if a preceived event has a beneficial outcome then does it matter that it's not real.

I was particularly interested in the thoughts about the self-healing mind producing a false perception to help heal itself...

I'd rather have a false perception that helped me through a mentally difficult time than have a better sense of reality but suffer a great deal of damaging mental anguish

Posted: 17-07-2008 09:31 Post subject:

We seem to have several G.A. threads, soI'll drop this in here pro tem:

Lorna Byrne: 'To me, seeing angels is natural'
Last Updated: 12:01am BST 17/07/2008

Lorna Byrne's memoir has been bought for a six-figure sum by the publishers of The Da Vinci Code, but she doesn't see her powers as unusual, says Peter Stanford

"I don't always see the angels' wings," admits Lorna Byrne, "but when I do, they are beautiful beyond words. The other day I was with someone and, as she walked into the room, her guardian angel opened up for me and I saw its golden wings in such detail. I could see the feathers individually."

Lorna Byrne's sincerity is unmistakeable
We are sitting in a central London café. To me, a mere mortal, there is nothing out of the ordinary to detain the eye - groups of people at tables, sipping drinks and chatting. But for the 54-year-old Byrne, as her eyes flit around over my shoulder, there is a whole other dimension.

For as long as she can remember, she has been able to see angels - as she describes in Angels in My Hair, a memoir that has become a runaway bestseller in her native Ireland and has just been signed up for a six-figure sum by the American publishers of The Da Vinci Code.

"I'm seeing spirals of light behind people," she reports. "Those are the people's guardian angels. We've all got one. They are usually about three paces behind us."

"And then I'm also seeing the other angels, too, the ones that I call the helpers and teachers. They are white and beautiful. All angels have a human appearance, but that's just for us, so we are not terrified."

It all sounds slightly bonkers - as if she is describing a long-forgotten Old Master, or a scene from Wim Wenders's 1987 flight of fancy, Wings of Desire, in which gentle, trenchcoated angels minister to battle-scarred Berliners.

But Byrne is no painter or arthouse filmmaker: she's a mother of four from Maynooth in Co Kildare.

"I know what I'm seeing, whatever anyone thinks of it," she says, as doubt crosses my face.

Byrne's red, shoulder-length hair is cut neatly, and she is conventionally dressed in a lime-green cardigan and navy skirt. She would be easily overlooked in a crowd, especially as she is so small and apparently fragile.

But as soon as she starts talking, there is something beguilingly otherworldly about her, rather as I imagine one of the medieval mystics now so beloved of mainstream Christianity might have appeared.

She admits, in a soft, slow voice that you have to lean in to hear, that she has been rather taken aback by the controversy and attention her book has generated.

"To me, seeing angels is quite natural. It's been happening for so long. I'm only discovering now, when people like you ask me questions about it, that others don't find it natural."

Byrne is not alone in believing in angels: three quarters of Americans and more than a third of Britons are also convinced that such heavenly helpers exist. But claiming to be able to see them is something else entirely. There are, I calculate, several possible explanations. She could be a charlatan, out to make a quick buck. She could be mad. Or she could be telling the truth.

The first option is the easiest to tackle. Her website contains the predictable testimonials from Irish celebrities.

Singer Daniel O'Donnell describes Byrne's insights as "breathtaking"; Jim Corr of the Corrs hails her "guidance… in times of universal deceit".

More substantial, though, are those from the less celebrated - such as this, from a Dublin therapist: "One patient, a girl from Sarajevo, had suffered major damage after a grenade had been thrown into her home. Her body was literally peppered with shrapnel, particularly the spinal area.

Lorna, without the use of X-ray, was not only able to point out where all the shrapnel pieces were, but to indicate what the effect of each piece was on the girl's body."

How did she know? "The angels told me," Byrne explains. Why did they tell you? "I haven't the faintest idea," she replies simply, rather as a child would. "They don't always tell me why."

So it is not just that Byrne sees angels - and has done since she was growing up in a rundown cottage next to her father's bicycle repair shop in Dublin in the 1960s. She can also communicate with them. I suggest that rather than being heavenly beings, they might be a kind of outward manifestation of an inner voice.

"People have called me all sorts of things in the past," she responds, unaffronted by the suggestion.

"I don't like 'psychic'. I'm not a psychic. Sometimes other people have said, 'Where's the healer?' when they have come to find me, but I don't heal. That's not me. That's God. The angels carry the message, helping me to intercede with God."

So can she talk directly to God, too? I lower my voice instinctively as I ask the question. "I know it sounds strange," she laughs. I wait. Finally, she answers: "I do, yes."

If Byrne were indeed a charlatan, she could have been putting her gifts to good use for years to feather her own nest - "make a load of money", as she puts it.

Instead, she stayed in her poor childhood home, attending a school where she was always treated as "retarded" - "I'm dys… what's the word, I still can't say it, you know - not good with words."

Then there was a loving, but cash-strapped, marriage to Joe, and four children, along with a variety of menial jobs to make ends meet.

Joe died young, as the angels had always told her he would. She recalls nursing him on his deathbed. Did that make her angry with God?

"No, I was allowed to see his soul [after he died] on one occasion. It was beautiful." She believes her romance was predestined.

"From the moment Angel Elijah showed me a vision of Joe, I was always in love with him. I was only maybe nine or 10 at the time, but the connection was made."

Byrne reveals quite how otherworldly she is when, in the course of talking about evil spirits (she says she has confronted the fallen angel, Satan, on at least one occasion), I mention Robert Mugabe as a potential candidate for demonic possession.

"Who's he?" she asks. As I explain, she is constantly looking away. From her perspective, there is clearly so much else going on in the room that the details of Zimbabwe's crisis don't hold her attention.

"I live in a parallel world," she explains, "between spirit world and human world. Angels, you see, are not souls of people who have died, as is sometimes said. They are creatures, another being, a spiritual being. So if you ask me the question of which world I'd find it easier to live in, I'd have to say the spirit world."

Her sincerity is unmistakeable, but it still leaves open the possibility that her visions are a form of mental illness. She has obviously heard the accusation often enough. "If I had told people what I was seeing when I was a child," she says, "I would have been locked away."

Throughout history, there has been a thin - some would say invisible - line between strong religious attachment and apparent insanity. Byrne remains, she says, a regular at Mass, and feels that too many people today are shy about admitting their faith.

"They are frightened to acknowledge that part of themselves that has anything to do with God, because they don't want to be thought of as mad, too."

So we come to the final option - the baffling idea that Byrne is telling the truth. Or, to be more precise, her truth. The churches, it seems, have so far been wary of endorsing her claims.

"The religions are putting angels out of the equation as much as possible, in order to have control over human beings," she explains. "And I mean all religions, all churches. I can see angels in churches, in synagogues and mosques. They are everywhere."

We've come back full circle. Is there any form of proof, other than her word, that she can offer for her claims?

"The response from the website. My book has given people back hope and belief in life itself, and that for me is wonderful. There are people who tell me they haven't prayed for years, since they left school, but now… It's the hope the world is crying out for."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2008/07/17/bobyrne117.xml

Posted: 29-07-2008 05:18 Post subject:

Well I can say I've never been over-religious. Although iI like the idea of going somewhere when i die.

I lost my Mom a few years back, and somehow the girl I was dating t the time decided that was a good night to sleep with one of my friends. I did what I normally did and swallowed it down and took it.

I started to change, I was getting Angry with everyone, I hated everyone. I looked terrible, like I had no life in me. I was cruel and would say just the worst things to people, because I wanted them to suffer. I would have dreams where I would be looking at my face in a mirror and it would deform and change into something, well just evil. One day I woke up and realized something needs to change or something terrible is going to happen.

That same day I was happening to watch documentaries on 'end of days' stuff that TLC and discovery is always running and the names Seth and Belial, we're mentioned. I felt terrified at those names, something inside of we cowered when I heard them and sometimes I still feel uneasy. I was at my worst, but I would never admit that evil was trying to influence me.

For the first time in a long time I prayed that night when I went to sleep. I asked for someone to help me, for someone to protect me because I felt weak. I remember almost being at the point of tears. But I felt strangely comforted, completely happy for just an instant, like something answered me.

In the middle of the night I woke up, and was immediately terrified because all of the power was going on and off. It seemed far to dark in the room itself, its like it was filled with darkness. Just then I felt someone crawl into bed with me, felt like they we're comforting me and I felt completely safe. Honestly I felt it was my mother comforting me, and whatever else was in this room was terrified by something else and left, everything went back to normal and I went back to sleep feeling completely happy. I felt loved and protected.

While some of you may not believe in Gods or Religion. Something protected me that night, I felt my mother comforting me, and I felt someone Fill the room with honestly, pure good. Whether it was really my mother and my guardian angel I'll never know. But in my greatest time of need something good and bad reached out to me. I'm just glad something is out there for me.

Posted: 26-12-2008 13:44 Post subject:

Mother takes photo of 'angel' in hospital as daughter on life- support makes miraculous recovery
Last updated at 2:54 PM on 24th December 2008

A mother, whose daughter was fighting for her life, believes that a photograph taken in a hospital ward shows an angel.
Colleen Banton, from Charlotte, North Carolina, was facing the agonising decision of taking her daughter off a life-support machine when the 'miracle' occurred.

14-year-old Chelsea had been admitted to the hospital with pneumonia, but a series of subsequent infections and a collapsed lung left the teenager breathing with the help of a ventilator.

As friends and family gathered to say their final goodbyes, Mrs Banton was alerted to an unusual bright light by a nurse.

'On the monitor, there was this bright light,' she said. 'And I looked at it and I said, "Oh my goodness! It looks like an angel!"'

A first attempt at capturing the image with a digital camera was unsuccessful: 'The first picture wouldn't take,' she said.
The second time she succeeded, and the mother-of-two sought solace in the image while her daughter's oxygen mask was removed.

Both family and staff were stunned when Chelsea began breathing for herself.

'When they took the mask off of her, her stats went as high as they've ever been,' said Mrs Banton. 'Her color was good, and the doctors and nurses were amazed. The nurse practitioner who saw the image in the monitor said, "I've worked here 15 years, and I've never seen anything like it.'''

Two weeks later, the teenager was sent home from hospital, in time for her 15th birthday on Christmas day.
'What was so ironic is it was a rainy day,' Mrs Banton said of her discovery. 'It had been overcast all day. And the sun only came out at that point.'
'If they doubt it, that's fine... But I know what I saw, and the picture's untouched. I didn't make it up. That's just something that I believe.
'I believe that more people have changed since this happened. I know I have. I look at things differently than I used to – because I know God is in control.'

Mrs Banton revealed that she and her older daughter had been 'praying for a miracle' since Chelsea was born five weeks prematurely, and was given 36 hours to live.
'She spent the first four months in a neonatal intensive care unit,' recalled her mother.

Against the odds, Chelsea - who has suffered from pneumonia, hydrocephalus, requiring a shunt in her skull, and life-threatening viruses throughout her childhood - is now at high school.

'I'm learning that every day she's alive is a miracle.' said Mrs Banton.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1101394/Mother-takes-photo-angel-hospital-daughter-life-support-makes-miraculous-recovery.html

The 'angel' looks to me like a reflection of some piece of hospital equipment, or maybe just a patch of sunlight coming through a window - but what do I know...?

Posted: 18-02-2011 15:03 Post subject:

Lorna Byrnes guidance wasn't much good for Jim Corr.

Posted: 22-04-2011 08:56 Post subject:

Florida balcony fall baby saved by British tourist

A toddler who fell from the top floor of a four-storey Florida hotel has escaped injury after being caught by a British woman on holiday.
Jah-Nea Myles, 16 months, apparently slipped through the balcony railing and fell into the arms of Helen Beard.

Ms Beard, of Worksop, was at the pool at Orlando's Econo Lodge hotel when she saw the baby hanging from the railing and ran underneath, she said.
She held the child until emergency medical workers arrived.

The baby was taken to hospital, where medical staff said they saw no bruises or scratches and deemed her in good health.
An investigator with the Orange County sheriff's office described her as "playful" and said she was not crying.

Helena Myles, Jah-Nea's 20-year-old mother, told police her friend Dominique Holt had been watching the baby in the adjacent hotel room.
Ms Holt, 21, said she went to the bathroom about 2100 local time (0100 GMT), then heard screaming and saw the balcony door ajar.
She ran out onto the balcony and saw the baby in the arms of Ms Beard, from Nottinghamshire.

Ms Myles told Reuters: "She's perfectly fine. Not a scratch on her body.
"I'm thanking the Lord above right now for saving my child's life. I'm also thanking that lady because she was an angel sent from heaven."

Police said no criminal charges were pending.

Orlando is a popular destination for holidaymakers, with Walt Disney World and other tourist attractions.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/13165880

Posted: 17-09-2013 08:18 Post subject:

Women survive 'savage attack' from tree in Wolterton

Two women have survived what they called a "savage attack" from a falling oak tree which smashed through the roof and windscreen of their moving car.

Helen Howes and Heather Hasthorpe were en route to a costume and textile fair at Wolterton Hall, Norfolk, on Saturday when the accident happened.
"The tree came through the windscreen and broke the wheel off from between my hands," said Mrs Howes.
A police spokesman said the friends were "very lucky" not to have died.

Mrs Howes, an artist based at Raveningham, near Beccles, was taken to hospital to be treated by a plastic surgeon who repaired a tendon and removed glass from her hand.
Mrs Hasthorpe walked away unhurt.

The tree fell at about 08:45 BST as the women were driving past the Saracen's Head pub, Wolterton.
Guests having breakfast at the pub called the emergency services.

Mrs Howes' car, a red VW Passat estate she calls the Red Baroness, was written off.
On her blog she described the car as being "savagely attacked by a falling oak tree". Cool

"It was a fantastic impact, it pretty much stopped the car," Mrs Howes said.
"When we staggered out the tree was across the road leaving this big bush on top of the car. In retrospect it looked quite decorative, but we could have done without it."

Mrs Hasthorpe said it was "amazing" that the injuries were not more serious.
"That branch that came into the car beside her right leg and ripped off the door panel actually caused a burn to the skin on her right knee, that's how close it was," she said.
"It was definitely a guardian angel job."

PC Ian Reed from Norfolk Police said Mrs Howes was "incredibly lucky" to escape what "could have easily been a fatal incident".
"I did suggest she might want to get a lottery ticket after her experience," he said.
Mrs Hasthorpe said she did buy a ticket on the way home but did not win on Saturday night's draw. Wink

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-24116694

Posted: 17-09-2013 12:29 Post subject:

Of course, you know you've got a really good guardian angel when you never have any close calls, or last minute escapes from death or mutilation.

That means your guardian angel guided you away from avalanches, flash floods, lightning strikes, unsuspected sink-holes, or roads where trees were about to fall down... Twisted Evil

But last-minute aversions of disaster are just a sign that the G.A. wasn't fully paying attention to the state of the world - sloppy work, in other words! A stitch in time saves nine, and all that.

Posted: 21-09-2013 23:29 Post subject:

That point reminds me of the time when I was a kid and we were all sat around the TV watching a documentary or some such about GAs. This one girl had got lost up a mountain, the weather had turned, and she was unknowingly about to walk off a cliff or something when this GA turned up (looking oldy-worldy Chinese!) and guided her away from danger. I was quite impressed until my Dad joked that it would've been better if he'd stopped her getting lost in the first place! Yeah, come to think of it, it would!

Perhaps some GAs are a bit, erm, attention seeking sometimes? They need to play the big hero and come running in at the last minute to save the day, get a write-up in the newspaper.

Posted: 22-09-2013 12:43 Post subject:

I've just remembered a tale that an ex-boss told me about his own experiences with what seemed to be a guardian angel. I'll try and tell it as close to how I remember him telling me:

My boss, let's call him E, had gone on a backpacking holiday by himself to Germany back in the mid 70s.
He fell over and hurt his foot while out walking and over the course of a couple of days it became infected. As a consequence, he became feverish and delirious.

He was barely able to walk but managed to get to a small town, where he encountered a man who seemed to realise what was wrong and spoke perfect English without a trace of an accent.

This man took him to a small hospital where he received medical attention and a dressing was placed on the wound. They gave him anti-tetanus shots and antibiotics. Throughout this, E was barely conscious. E told the man he wanted to get back home. When E felt able to walk, the man helped him up and supported him as he walked away. Amazingly, the man took him all the way to the airport, through customs, through the passport check and onto the plane.

At no point during the whole length of this encounter was E able to see this man's face. He made repeated attempts to look at this man's face, but each attempt seemed curiously stymied, and the most he could see was a blur.

When E got on the plane, still fuzzy-headed and a bit delirious, he looked around and saw that the man had gone. He asked the stewardess if she had seen the man who'd come on board with him, and she looked puzzled. 'You came on board by yourself', she said.

E reckoned he'd met his guardian angel.
Or...could it have been an elaborate, consistent hallucination that lasted a couple of days?
Or...did he just meet someone who had the ability to walk anywhere he liked unchallenged through an airport and onto a plane? Shocked

Posted: 22-09-2013 21:23 Post subject:

Not sure if this fits here, but I once had a dream (only a dream!) that I had a guardian spirit and his name was Gary.
What a let down Laughing

I was introduced to him as he sat cross-legged on top of a mahogany wardrobe, grinning like someone insane.

He actually looked like the Belgian detective Poirot.