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| min_bannister Lancette |
 Posted: 11-04-2005 20:45 Post subject: Shockingly close to Charles Fort |
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Nice little history of Charles Fort and Fortean Times that I had forgotten about in January's edition of Saucer Smear
| Quote: | One very rarely hears the name of Charles Fort in urological circles, and this is indeed a shame, as he was the modern founder of the study of anomalies, including what we now call flying saucers. Fort, an American who lived from 1874 to 1932, literally went nearly blind as a collector of oddities from newspapers, magazines, scientific journals, etc., spending most of his time in the New York Public Library and the British Museum Library. He published four books crammed with these oddities plus his own philosophical thoughts - and these appeared from 1919 to 1932. Unlike most saucerers, he held no dogmatic views, but merely enjoyed pointing out things that science could not explain. Said he: "I conceive of nothing, in religion, science, or philosophy, that is more than the proper thing to wear, for awhile."
Fort had friends who were major writers of his generation, and some of these formed an early version of the Fortean Society. We understand that Charles Fort himself gave little or no encouragement to this effort to keep his legacy alive. Tiffany Thayer, one of these well-known writers from the 1920s, became secretary of the Fortean Society around the time of his mentor's demise, and edited a slick little magazine called "Doubt" - a very appropriate title. We used to have quite a few issues of "Doubt", which we exchanged in the 1950s for our zine "Saucer News". Thayer had no use for flying saucers, recognizing correctly that the field was more of a cult than a serious inquiry. We corresponded with Thayer a bit, and once asked him to send back a printable comment about "Saucer News". He answered to the effect that since he could say nothing good about it, he would be kind enough to say nothing bad!
After Thayer's death in the late 1950s, the original Fortean Society folded, but there were several attempts to revive it in subsequent years. The (then) well-known naturalist Ivan Sanderson formed an organization called SITU (Society for the Investigation of the Unknown), which for many years published a slick magazine named "Pursuit". This struggled on after Sanderson's death, and then went out of business. Another Fortean organization has its home base in Maryland, and still exists, in that it sponsors annual conventions there. And then there was a short-lived attempt by the notorious John A. Keel to run a Fortean Society in New York City in the 1970s. Such a group should, by definition, have the same sort of openminded skepticism as did Fort himself, but Keel's highly opinionated beliefs may well have contributed to the death of this particular group. Also lack of funds, as often happens.
In 1973 the British newsstand magazine "Fortean Times" was founded by Bob Rickard, who was later joined by two other gentlemen. This zine is a force to be taken seriously. Currently it is a very professionally-done monthly production of about 80 pages, sold on some newsstands on both sides of the Atlantic, and available by subscription for the hefty price of $59.40 per year. Getting in touch with them may be somewhat difficult, but the subscription address appears to be: Fortean Times, Cary Court, Bancombe Road Trading Estate, TAll 6TB, United Kingdom (UK). Here you have in-depth articles on an endless array of interesting off-beat subjects, written by professional writers rather than amateur hacks. Karl Pflock and Jim Moseley have contributed a few times, and your humble "Smear" editor has crossed the Pond twice, in 1997 and 2002, to speak at their annual "UnConventions" in London.
For devotees of "Fortean Times", UFOs are only one topic out of many, and we have noticed, in our two convention appearances, that the interplanetary hypothesis, even among those drawn to the topic of saucers, is far less prevalent over there than it is here in America. Charles Fort reported on countless mysterious lights in the sky, on the Moon, etc. - seen through telescopes or by the unaided eyeball - and he facetiously suggested that these might be spaceships from other planets. But he most definitely did not make a quasi-religion out of it!
Our gratitude to "Fortean Times" is not only for the honor of having been invited to two of their "UnConventions" in London, but for the remarkable tolerence they have shown for the fact that we "borrow" material from them (mostly in the form of little printed vignettes) in almost every issue of "Saucer Smear". We doubt that the present "plug" in our magazine will do much to increase their circulation, but we do want to express our thanks for the intellectual enlightenment we have received from them, over the years. We wish a very long life indeed to Bob Rickard and his literary efforts! |
I expect there must be old issues of "Doubt" still surviving. Anyone here care to own up?  |
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| Anonymous |
| Posted: 11-04-2005 22:07 Post subject: Doubt |
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Doubt, also less alluringly called The Fortean Society Magazine, still exists in Fort's old haunt, the New York Public Library.
Thayer initially wanted to call the magazine of the Fortean Society The Fortean [Thayer-Dreiser Feb 26, 1935] but this was abandoned in favour of the simpler The Fortean Society Magazine; however from its eleventh issue (winter 1944) the title was changed to Doubt and the former title became its subtitle
The New York Public Library [http://www.nypl.org] has in its collections no's. 1-61 of Doubt: all were edited by Thayer and published by him at his own expense as a hobby. The first and second editions were published in September and October of 1937 respectively and referred to as 'volume one.' Sept. 1937 - Dec. 1939 (nos 8-10 are undated) and their call number, should you ever be near the NYPL, the call numbers are:
3-OA (Doubt) Library has: No. 1-no. 10.
Issues 11-16 enjoy the calendrical reordering of the Fortean Society's thirteen-month calendar (the new month naturally being called 'Fort' - copies of this 13-month calendar are available in the Donald Beaty Bloch papers, again at the NYPL) and so are dated years 13-16, i.e. 1943-46. No. 17 is undated and numbers 28-61 are called volume 2-3. Their call number is:
3-OA (Doubt) Library has: No. 11-no. 61.
In any case it seems that the magazine inherited the excesses of the Society, violating Fort's non-judgemental attitude to the data and, later, succumbing to Thayer's political ventings.
Some collections may also still be held by (or mouldering in the basements of) older Forteans; Damon Knight says that Vincent Gaddis loaned him his complete file of Doubt and perhaps other copies exist elsewhere. Knight's book Charles Fort: Prophet of the Unexplained features the covers of no. 20 and another undated issue (so no.8, 10 or 17) [fig 14 in Knight] and discusses the magazine on p.185-200.
Ian
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Jerry_B Great Old One Joined: 15 Apr 2002 Total posts: 8265 |
| Posted: 11-04-2005 22:33 Post subject: |
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| It would be great if Doubt could be reprinted in some shape or form... |
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| Anonymous |
| Posted: 11-04-2005 23:14 Post subject: |
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I think that Doubt would only really be of interest to Fortean scholars; although it did continue Fort's work of reporting and discussing anomalous data it seems to have done so without the wit and wisdom of Fort himself, and its later politicalisation and crankery (say as Thayer's objections to water fluoridation and his ideas about the geometricity of the planets and Moon) are quite distant from Fortean Times' style. Perhaps one day, though, they could be reissued for Fortean scholars (either in print or electronically) in the future when and if sufficient interest arises to meet the costs.
Ian |
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| Mighty_Emperor Divine Wind
Joined: 18 Aug 2002 Total posts: 19943 Location: Mongo Age: 42 Gender: Male |
| Posted: 11-04-2005 23:30 Post subject: Re: Shockingly close to Charles Fort |
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| Min Bannister wrote: | Nice little history of Charles Fort and Fortean Times that I had forgotten about in January's edition of Saucer Smear
| Quote: | | One very rarely hears the name of Charles Fort in urological circles, |
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Taking the piss surely?
---------------
Before I get my coat it might be worth checking the copyright situation......
Last edited by Mighty_Emperor on 11-04-2005 23:40; edited 1 time in total |
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| Jerry_B Great Old One Joined: 15 Apr 2002 Total posts: 8265 |
| Posted: 11-04-2005 23:34 Post subject: |
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Sometimes it's not easy to tell what's a typo and what's not with Smear 
As for Doubt being only of any interest to 'Fortean scholars' (if there is such a thing) one would hope that somehow, someday it would be available as part of the Fortean Library idea that occasionally surfaces here... |
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| Anonymous |
| Posted: 11-04-2005 23:37 Post subject: |
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| JerryB wrote: | | 'Fortean scholars' (if there is such a thing) |
Hmm, maybe I meant ''purist'' or something similar, but I think Mr X, the resologist of http://www.resologist.net, would certainly count as a Fortean scholar: for his recovery of Fort's stories and correspondance, his editing, correction and referencing of Fort's books and his other researches into Fort and Forteanism in general.
Ian |
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| min_bannister Lancette |
| Posted: 12-04-2005 11:05 Post subject: Re: Doubt |
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There probably wouldn't be much demand for a reprint but certainly it would be interesting to happen upon some elderly Fortean's cellar collection. 
| Iankidd wrote: | Issues 11-16 enjoy the calendrical reordering of the Fortean Society's thirteen-month calendar (the new month naturally being called 'Fort' - copies of this 13-month calendar are available in the Donald Beaty Bloch papers, again at the NYPL) and so are dated years 13-16, i.e. 1943-46. No. 17 is undated and numbers 28-61 are called volume 2-3.
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Interesting that the original Fortean Society had a thirteen month calendar. FT is produced every four weeks is it not, so there are 13 issues a year? Is that a throwback to this?
Thanks for all that info Ian, if I ever go to New York I'm visiting the library! |
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| Anonymous |
| Posted: 12-04-2005 11:31 Post subject: Re: Doubt |
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| Min Bannister wrote: | | if I ever go to New York I'm visiting the library! |
In May or April 2001 I went to California and spend a day in New York: seeing as my family and I didn't have lots of time we wandered around a lot and I made a 'pilgraimage' to NYPL and sat in one of their beautiful reading rooms reading FT issues 1-15 It was great; I even took notes!
Ian |
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| min_bannister Lancette |
| Posted: 15-04-2005 12:56 Post subject: |
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Hehe cool.
Seems as if Doubt at least started off in the right vein as you say with people collecting newscuttings to put in it. This was an interesting one I found in UFO Roundup vol 8 no.23. I think it shows the importance of collecting these things as one day the mystery may be solved.
| Quote: | In the June 1943 issue of The Fortean Society Magazine, Thayer ran a strange little news item from Switzerland.
"Grey snow fell in Basel, Switzerland 2-7-42 (February 7, 1942). Orthodox explanation: 'caused by an oily substance of the nature of soot produced by combustion at some great distance.' As far away as Mars, perhaps?"
Two years later, the phenomenon repeated itself. "A Sofia (Bulgaria) dispatch quoted by UP (United Press, forerunner of today's United Press International--J.T.) 3- 29-44 (March 29, 1944) stated that black snow had fallen 'in some parts of Bulgaria.' Ash clouds from (Mount) Vesuvius, as usual."
Today it appears obvious that the grey and black snows were caused by the mass cremations at the Auschwitz- Birkenau vernichtungenslager (death camp) in southern Poland. The ashes were carried into the stratosphere and subsequently precipitated out as dark-colored snows. When the cremations halted, the "phenomenon" disappeared, as well. |
 Certainly makes you think.
I wonder if this one will ever be explained?
| Quote: | "British scientists, 14 strong, under (Lieutenant Commander) J.W.S. Marr were reported 4-24-44 (April 24, 1944) in Antarctica. The mission began secretly, is proceeding mysteriously, and will end in confusion for poor Homer Sap."
The mission may have ended, but the scientific and military results--if any--of the 1944 Marr expedition never became public knowledge. What were the Allies up to on the frozen southern continent? An enterprising World War II historian might want to find out.
"Echo, 12-29-45 (December 29, 1945): Mr. Shaw of West Bromwich again--reported the first quake, in his 38 years of experience, within 1,000 miles (1,600 kilometers) of the South Pole. It lasted FOUR HOURS."
This phenomenon was never explained, not even during the International Geophysical Year (IGY) expeditions in 1957. (See The Fortean Society Magazine for June 1943, "Gray snowfall," page 7; Doubt: The Fortean Society Magazine for Winter 1945, "Black snow," page 164; and Doubt, ibid. page 164.) |
Glad there still seem to be plenty of archives of these things though. Who knows what treasures are buried within? |
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| Anonymous |
| Posted: 16-04-2005 03:05 Post subject: Strange doings transpiring in Antarctica |
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[quote="Min Bannister"]
| Quote: | "British scientists, 14 strong, under (Lieutenant Commander) J.W.S. Marr were reported 4-24-44 (April 24, 1944) in Antarctica. The mission began secretly, is proceeding mysteriously, and will end in confusion for poor Homer Sap."
The mission may have ended, but the scientific and military results--if any--of the 1944 Marr expedition never became public knowledge. What were the Allies up to on the frozen southern continent? An enterprising World War II historian might want to find out. |
As an interesting Fortean aside, in 1916 Fort completed the manuscript of Y which proposed the existence of a sinister civilization at the South Pole (though differing sources disagree about at which pole this civilization was located). Perhaps Lt Cmdr. Marr and his team were either searching for or attempting contact with this alleged Hyperborean civilization? If they did find something, no wonder that the data never became public knowledge.
We could speculate that the 1961 Antarctic Treaty was not so much a ''hands-off'' agreement as a treaty between the world's nations and the Hyperboreans; consider the Treaty's aims to:
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* to demilitarize Antarctica, to establish it as a zone free of nuclear tests and the disposal of radioactive waste, and to ensure that it is used for peaceful purposes only;
* to promote international scientific cooperation in Antarctica;
* to set aside disputes over territorial sovereignty.
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The treaty seems to ensure that no military forces will be stationed in Antarctica and that no nuclear or radioactive pollution find its way there, that international scientific efforts will be concentrated towards co-operative scientific development with the Hyperboreans and that until such positive reations can be established, that all other diplomatic and strategic disputes are put to one side. Considering that ''[t]he treaty remains in force indefinitely'' it seems that the research will take some time. [http://www.antarctica.ac.uk/About_Antarctica/Treaty/] See Lo! pt 1 ch 6 for more on ''loony theories.'' [http://www.resologist.net/lo106.htm
| Quote: | | Glad there still seem to be plenty of archives of these things though. Who knows what treasures are buried within? |
Having the records extant is one thing; actually processing them into a useable form is another. There is plenty of Fortean material in the world but most of it is gathreing dust in library backrooms, archives, council and parish records, etc., and locating, recording and providing it to researchers and interested Forteans is a whole new ballgame. For more on this see:
http://www.forteana.org/html/reference.html
http://www.forteana.org/html/BR-intro.html
http://www.forteana.org/html/MD-museum.html
Someday there will be a permanent, operational Fortean museum but until then, it's back to the clippings and folders...
Ian |
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| Jerry_B Great Old One Joined: 15 Apr 2002 Total posts: 8265 |
| Posted: 16-04-2005 11:20 Post subject: |
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| I'm not sure why the secrecy about a military expedition in 1944 would be so unusual. It was, after all, a military expedition, made during wartime. |
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| Anonymous |
| Posted: 16-04-2005 16:36 Post subject: |
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| JerryB wrote: | | I'm not sure why the secrecy about a military expedition in 1944 would be so unusual. It was, after all, a military expedition, made during wartime. |
But who was at war with who? Maybe all those Nazis who fled to South America were actually using Montevideo, etc., as stepping stones for their flight to the Hyperboreans? And what else could have been of military interest in Antarctica back then? It's too remote and inhospitable to be of serious strategic value (in 1944 anyway) and too far from Nazi influence to be under threat anyway...perhaps there are, or were, sinister civilizations at *noth* poles (notwithstanding the lack of a fixed physical North Pole) - the Nazis went for the Thuleans and the Allies for the Hyperboreans?
Of course, this is just a loony theory!
Ian |
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| Jerry_B Great Old One Joined: 15 Apr 2002 Total posts: 8265 |
| Posted: 18-04-2005 10:33 Post subject: |
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| Secrecy doesn't necessarily imply anything of big importance. It doesn't sound like a particularly large expedition. |
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| Anonymous |
| Posted: 18-04-2005 10:50 Post subject: |
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| JerryB wrote: | | It doesn't sound like a particularly large expedition. |
Well, only by going on what They say...
Ian |
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