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Pentagon 911 Conspiracy?
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lupinwickOffline
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PostPosted: 09-08-2007 14:20    Post subject: Reply with quote

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One problem is that defence spending tends to suffer from hyper-inflation, whereby contractors charge over the odds for the goods and service they supply. IIRC, there was one example where the US military was spending something like $15 for a wrench, whereas the cost of the same item in a hardware store for anyone on the street was less than half that. I can't say it's really a surprise that defence spending has been a black hole.


Applies to all governmental spending, in this country as well. Company I work for will flog a £400 PC for £1500 to a government department. They're catching on tho', just not very quickly.
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Jerry_BOffline
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PostPosted: 09-08-2007 14:28    Post subject: Reply with quote

Analis wrote:
So, is it ncredible that they would do it in plain sight? 20 years ago, probably they wouldn't dare. But there were so many examples of media complacnecy in the 90s. See how Gary Webb or dissenting voives to TWA 800, or to the bombings of Serbia, were defamed and insulted. The media have grown more and more a commercial industry in the 80s and 90s. People grew more and more asleep, acccustomed to a poor state of "information". More and more equated to commercial erntertainment. Plus the spreading of the X-Files mythology, a convenient tool to discredit anyone interested in disturbing matters and political conspiracies. So yes, I suspect that they believed the conditions to be right.


But your whole post has at it's heart the basic illogicality of the 9/11 conspiracy theory - namely, that people on the whole are 'sheeple' (or whatever) but that at the same time they had to be fooled by a very elaborate plot in order to be convinced that they should back the neo-con agenda. Surely if people and the media on the whole are becoming less questioning and information-poor, a conspiracy such as the one alleged about 9/11 would not be needed? Something far less sophisticated could have been manufactured? After all, isn't it also part of the conspiracy that the media are pretty much controlled too?
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Jerry_BOffline
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PostPosted: 09-08-2007 14:30    Post subject: Reply with quote

lupinwick wrote:
Applies to all governmental spending, in this country as well. Company I work for will flog a £400 PC for £1500 to a government department. They're catching on tho', just not very quickly.


Yep, and defence spending just doesn't entail spending on weapons, tanks etc. - it's all of the mundane stuff required to keep the whole system up and running.
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ted_bloody_maulOffline
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PostPosted: 09-08-2007 14:57    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry_B wrote:


Yep, and defence spending just doesn't entail spending on weapons, tanks etc. - it's all of the mundane stuff required to keep the whole system up and running.


The Pentagon has some of the most hi-tech staplers ever developed and the air conditioning is second to none.
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AnalisOffline
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PostPosted: 10-08-2007 08:57    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry_B: "namely, that people on the whole are 'sheeple' (or whatever) but that at the same time they had to be fooled by a very elaborate plot to be convinced that they should back the neo-con agenda.
I guess that few would dispute that the masses grew more and more indifferent. But there remain dissenting voices, like Noam CHOMSKY and Alexandre ZIEGLER. And some honnest journalists. Parts of the estblishment, who remained critical of the policy followed by the world leaders since the Reagan era. But I wrote that this Blitzkrieg psychology was designed to silence everyone, including them. And it worked. Liberal and left-winger media, Chomsky, Ziegler or Cockburn didn't dare to dispute the official version, Michael Moore only did it on minor facets. I read that Chomsky grew more sceptical recently, but he probably won't go too far.
That's not to say that the 'sheeple' didn't have to be convinced, too. The US right-wing has a very simplistic and stubborn view of the world; but whole parts of it have a strong tradition of isolationnism. The attacks were intended to 'shake' it, too.

I'll add that sheeple isn't the right word.. Because it suppose that people are only passive. While in fact, they have an active involvment in this rejection of disturbing news. Journalists and politicians who remind them of third world problems, domestic inequalities, etc... are punished. They don't watch their documentaries, they don't elect them. This state of control couldn't exist without their active (and often aggressive) complacency. This is the true danger to democracy.
Ironically, while you point that Bush and the 'conspiracists' share basically the same vision of humankind, it can be said too of most followers of the official conspiracy theory. Those people are often paranoiac, and have a very conspiratorial view of the world. Acccording to them, it is full of threatening, hidden and evil forces. All intending to destroy the USA, of course. It is especially true of the fundamentalist Christians. They see Satan-inspired conspiracies everywhere, and are rather agressive towards everyone who doesn't agree with them. The people who are the easiest to convince are the most conspiracist and the most deluded.
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Jerry_BOffline
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PostPosted: 10-08-2007 09:47    Post subject: Reply with quote

Analis wrote:
Ironically, while you point that Bush and the 'conspiracists' share basically the same vision of humankind, it can be said too of most followers of the official conspiracy theory. Those people are often paranoiac, and have a very conspiratorial view of the world. Acccording to them, it is full of threatening, hidden and evil forces. All intending to destroy the USA, of course. It is especially true of the fundamentalist Christians. They see Satan-inspired conspiracies everywhere, and are rather agressive towards everyone who doesn't agree with them. The people who are the easiest to convince are the most conspiracist and the most deluded.


Er...no - I didn't say that nor was I implying that 'Bush and the 'conspiracists' share basically the same vision of humankind'. My overall point is that there is a lack of logic in the conspiracy theory - i.e. that people are 'sheeple', but need to be cowed by something like 9/11, which supposedly involves a very elaborate plot involving perhaps thousands of conspirators. 'Loose Change' starts off by talking about false flag operations - but the ones it mentions were way, way less intricate than that needed for a supposed 9/11 plot. And if people are basically 'sheeple' why would the effort to manufacture such a complicated plot be needed at all?
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wembley8Offline
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PostPosted: 10-08-2007 09:57    Post subject: Reply with quote

Analis wrote:
I guess that few would dispute that the masses grew more and more indifferent.


I can't see many people agreeing with that! Starting with specifically with Veitnam and Watergate, the US public woke up to the level of dishonesty involved in their national government. Things have been very much harder for anyone trying to put one across since then.

Governments simply cannot rely on a compliant media the way they did in the 50's. And the interbet has added a whole new level. These days even if you can stop a story from getting to any of the mainstream media, it will be all over cyberspace within hours.

The really great days of conspiracies were back before the 20th century, when the mass media could be controlled and secret treaties were common.

Oh, and the famous $600 (or $435 depending on who you read) hammer story is more complex than you might have thought-
http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/1298/120798t1.htm
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Pietro_Mercurios
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PostPosted: 10-08-2007 10:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry_B wrote:
Analis wrote:
Ironically, while you point that Bush and the 'conspiracists' share basically the same vision of humankind, it can be said too of most followers of the official conspiracy theory. Those people are often paranoiac, and have a very conspiratorial view of the world. Acccording to them, it is full of threatening, hidden and evil forces. All intending to destroy the USA, of course. It is especially true of the fundamentalist Christians. They see Satan-inspired conspiracies everywhere, and are rather agressive towards everyone who doesn't agree with them. The people who are the easiest to convince are the most conspiracist and the most deluded.


Er...no - I didn't say that nor was I implying that 'Bush and the 'conspiracists' share basically the same vision of humankind'. My overall point is that there is a lack of logic in the conspiracy theory - i.e. that people are 'sheeple', but need to be cowed by something like 9/11, which supposedly involves a very elaborate plot involving perhaps thousands of conspirators. 'Loose Change' starts off by talking about false flag operations - but the ones it mentions were way, way less intricate than that needed for a supposed 9/11 plot. And if people are basically 'sheeple' why would the effort to manufacture such a complicated plot be needed at all?

This is all very jolly, but it's all interpolation, extrapolation and opinion.

Nice to see you admit that there are such things as false flag operations, though. Smile

And the bit about "sheeple," again. tsk. tsk. no-no
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Pietro_Mercurios
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PostPosted: 10-08-2007 10:05    Post subject: Reply with quote

wembley8 wrote:
...

Governments simply cannot rely on a compliant media the way they did in the 50's. And the interbet has added a whole new level. These days even if you can stop a story from getting to any of the mainstream media, it will be all over cyberspace within hours.

...

My goodness. We must watch different channels. When it comes to the big stuff. the Official Stuff, most mainstream Media seem to fall into line pretty quick these days. That goes for both sides of the pond. The whole Iraq Debacle, start to whenever it crawls bloodily to its end, being a case in point.

And if something different gets on to the internet there's plenty of sources around to cry 'Conspiracy Theorist!'
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Jerry_BOffline
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PostPosted: 10-08-2007 11:29    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pietro_Mercurios wrote:
This is all very jolly, but it's all interpolation, extrapolation and opinion.


Mine or 'Loose Change'?

Quote:
Nice to see you admit that there are such things as false flag operations, though. Smile


I didn't admit anything. I merely noted that the false flag operations they mentioned weren't very complex (in terms of methodology). Whether they actually were such false flag operations after all, well...

Quote:
And the bit about "sheeple," again. tsk. tsk. no-no


Note that the term is being used in inverted commas. It's not a term I'm using personally to describe anyone.
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Jerry_BOffline
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PostPosted: 10-08-2007 11:32    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pietro_Mercurios wrote:

My goodness. We must watch different channels. When it comes to the big stuff. the Official Stuff, most mainstream Media seem to fall into line pretty quick these days. That goes for both sides of the pond. The whole Iraq Debacle, start to whenever it crawls bloodily to its end, being a case in point.


And so with that in mind the need to stage something as complex at 9/11 is defunct. Something much less complicated could have been manufactured, and (what with supposed media connivance/malaise/co-operation) put across to the general public.
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Pietro_Mercurios
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PostPosted: 10-08-2007 11:46    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry_B wrote:
...

And so with that in mind the need to stage something as complex at 9/11 is defunct. Something much less complicated could have been manufactured, and (what with supposed media connivance/malaise/co-operation) put across to the general public.

But, 9/11 was incontrovertibly 'real.' Whatever might have been hung on that event, like much of the rationalisation for the Invasion of Iraq, might have been largely fantasy, smoke and mirrors, but it was hung upon a 'real, paradigm changing, event. Whatever the real cause of 9/11, the iconic memory of its substantial imprint has been used to changed the World radically from the one that existed on 9/10 2001.

It has been mediated and manipulated into the most 'Significant' and Spectacular event of 21st century, so far. Of course it had to be real. A 'Pearl Harbor' style incident.
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jefflovestoneOffline
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PostPosted: 10-08-2007 12:10    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 'sheeple' thing has always intrigued me as I think it's fair and unfair at the same time.

I was once told, perhaps wrongly, that like it's easier to control or at least direct a herd/flock/group of animals than a single animal. I think that's the crux here. A single sheep can be willful and obstinate and yet with the right methods larger numbers can be pushed through all manner of gates and pens.

I think it's a case of making sure the herd respond to the 'right signals'.
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lupinwickOffline
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PostPosted: 10-08-2007 12:37    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or this term...

Quote:
A bellwether is any entity in a given arena that serves to create or influence trends or to presage future happenings. The term is derived from the Middle English bellewether and refers to the practice of placing a bell around the neck of a castrated ram (a wether) in order that this animal might lead its flock of sheep.

In sociology, the term is applied in the active sense to a person or group of people who tend to create, influence or set trends.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellwether
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Jerry_BOffline
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PostPosted: 10-08-2007 12:44    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pietro_Mercurios wrote:
But, 9/11 was incontrovertibly 'real.' Whatever might have been hung on that event, like much of the rationalisation for the Invasion of Iraq, might have been largely fantasy, smoke and mirrors, but it was hung upon a 'real, paradigm changing, event. Whatever the real cause of 9/11, the iconic memory of its substantial imprint has been used to changed the World radically from the one that existed on 9/10 2001.

It has been mediated and manipulated into the most 'Significant' and Spectacular event of 21st century, so far. Of course it had to be real. A 'Pearl Harbor' style incident.


The conspiracist take on 9/11 is that it was a staged event, created with the sole purpose of giving the neo-cons an excuse to invade Iraq, and various other plans on their agenda. And as a staged event it had to be cataclysmic, in order to shock the US public into going along with neo-con follow up. This despite the fact that conspiracists in general seem to imply that people in general are cowed and cajoled quite easily and that the media is merely a puppet of the Nefarious Powers That Be. But if people are in fact as cowed as conjoled as is assumed, and the media is a slave to certain interests, there would be no need to manufacture something as cataclysmic as 9/11 (and to have to go to all the trouble to set it up, carry it out and keep it entirely leakproof). A much lesser incident would've sufficed.

It's basic illogicalities in the conspiracy theory like that strike me as being one reason for not taking it seriously. The theorists seem to be contradicting themselves.
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