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Posted: 12-03-2002 20:56 Post subject: Autism and the MMR vaccine

MMR Vaccine

Ok so thers been a lot of publicity about MMR etc... but ive been told that the single jabs have problems too!.. Any doctors out there?... it seems the single jabs are kept sterile with a tiny amount of Murcury and when all given can add up to an amount exceeding safety levels....!(as an aside our lad Harry 22 months has had the MMR ).....

Posted: 12-03-2002 21:00 Post subject:

Give us the choice I say!

Oh sorry, I thought this was a democracy....

Posted: 12-03-2002 21:19 Post subject:

My eldest boy has childhood epilepsy which I believe was caused by the MMR, my youngest boy has had the single jabs (my bank account is still hurting!)..I really don't know if there are safety issues concerning the single jabs but in my opinion (and it's just mine, people can have the MMR if they wish) for my son it was the safest option to have them singly.

Off my soapbox now........ Smile

Posted: 12-03-2002 22:50 Post subject: Please do not read if easily offended

The MMR 'controversy' really annoys me. Would people rather have measles back? A few middle class whingers who can't accept that some kids are not going to be perfect combined with a dodgy doctor and a media that doesn't appear to understand basic scientific concepts, and suddenly its panic in the streets time.

There is no evidence that MMR causes any problems. Its this simple, if you give all kids MMR, you're giving it to some who would have developed problems whether or not they'd had the jab. As it happens MMR is given at around the same time when certain conditions (eg autism) start to become apparent, but this does not mean there's a causal link.

The real problem is that we live in a culture where people believe that somehow they've got an inalienable right for bad things not to happen to them. This tendency is magnified when it comes to people's children. From refusal to accept that their little darlings are scumbag vandals and arsonists, to the refusal to acept that some kids die and get injured and its just an accident, you see the same pattern.

In the case of MMR, we see the same middle class whiners who feel that someone has to be to blame for their trophy kid isn't going to be something they can boast about like the house and car, at work. Its giving into this lobby that's given rise to the sour joke that the difference between diagnosis of dyslexia and moderate learning difficulties is dependent on property values.

And as for this crap about choice, MMR is given because its the most effective method of protecting kids against really viscious diseases. It might not fit into the paradigm of the me generation, but this is one of those times when you're up against brute fact, and your denial of this is putting others at risk. Believe it or not, the majority of doctors want to prevent disease, and have kids of their own. What motive would they have for supporting MMR if it wasn't the safest thing we've got for immunisation?

Similarly, most scientific research is accurate, and many things are well understood by science. Some so-called Forteans might not like this to be the case, but it is after all the whole reason that we can be arguing 'here'. What motive would there be for researchers covering up adverse affects from MMR?

However, we can easily see the interlinked motives of the publicity hungry doctor who started this, the ever more trivial media, and the vultures offering single jabs on the private. They're the ones benefiting from this whole farce.

I'd like to be able to say that I'm sorry if I've offended anyone, but this is an episode of such stunning cutural idiocy that I really don't care.

Posted: 12-03-2002 23:09 Post subject:

Well i agree with wintermute but not quite so loadly... to think that u may have done somthing that gave your child brain damage is such a terrible thing, well it upsets me to think of it.

But ive sat in a Baby group and heard the women talking about the Telly progs about it all. And all u see is what can be filmed ie tragicly disabled children and their desperate parents. Never the ones who havent been damaged by Measels or Mumps.. And ive seen the hushed tones as they discus a child who one of thier children has played with has developed Measels.....

Forty u have a choice down here u can take ur child to some cowboy caravan of Doctors who think the Hipocratic Oath is what u saw to troublesome aquatic African animals. They are like Pirates surfing in. The mothers desperate and worried queing up and probably going hungry so they are "doing the best" for thier children....... Screaming children, betrayed by thier protectors as they endure jab upon jab.......

Our Doc admited that he didnt have his kids done till he saw the mediacl journal results of a measels epidemic in Ireland and he did it next day.... btu as is the moden docors way we had to say to him ..."what is your opinion and we wont balme u or sue u..."

Posted: 12-03-2002 23:17 Post subject:

Thank you Witermute, I totally agree with everything you say, lets hope common sense prevails.

Posted: 13-03-2002 00:38 Post subject:

I have reached my thirty something years old and have never had a vaccination for anything , not tetanus , whooping cough,nothing . My mother was very anti doctors when I was a kid ! I had my kids done with the usual stuff , though a few years later then the usual age though I did miss out the whooping cough one ( there are sinister rumours of a secret home for children damaged by the whooping cough vaccine not too many miles away - very ULish ) . It is pretty well established now that dogs can get auto-immine problems following vaccines , I still have my dog given a booster every year . You have to wiegh it all up.
Marion

Posted: 13-03-2002 01:25 Post subject:

Some studies appear to show a rise in autism since the introduction of MMR. Other studies disagree. The studies that get the publicity (and the money?) are the ones which vindicate government policy. Our beloved leader has still not said (as far as I know) whether or not the sprog has had MMR or not.

Is choice (MMR or single vaccines) so bad?

Is the idea of a definitive large-scale study so bad?

Wouldn't you rather be sure? I'm not a parent, but I think I'd be worried.

Maybe the apparent rise in autism is due to better and earlier diagnosis, maybe it is caused by MMR. Wouldn't you like answers instead of conjecture?

The government keep assuring us that MMR is safe. Remember the assurances that there was no link between BSE and variant CJD? Remember the u-turn, the new rules for abattoirs?

There have been 2 cases of measles reported in Scotland in the last day or so - the first for 2 years. When I had measles over 30 years ago, I had a few miserable days and an itchy rash - the 'normal' reaction. I was surprised to learn that measles could be lethal, and, since it's not the 'ordinary kid's disease' that I thought it was, wouldn't want to see it return. However, is it fair to ask parents to make the choice between protection against a disease that may, very occasionally, prove fatal, and a vaccine that may, occasionally, ruin or radically alter their children's lives?

(PS, I was vaccinated against smallpox, a disease that no longer exists 'in the wild'. If MMR were to eradicate measles worldwide, I'd say that a temporary rise in autism may be a price worth paying. But if we're not eradicating measles, dare we take the risk?)

Posted: 13-03-2002 04:31 Post subject:

(sigh) vaccinations again...
jon, remember our discussion on this subject (with variations?)
My belief is that if there IS a link between MMR and autism, etc it can probably be traced to mercury based preservatives. These preservatives are used not just in volatile vaccine cultures but in all kinds of things and can cause many different problems. If nothing else, maybe this controversey will cause the general public to ask their health professionals more informed questions instead of raging at them after the fact (when something tragic happens). And maybe, people will start to READ those hand outs you are given which explain risks and possible side effects, etc.
As a veteran of single jabs (pre MMR) and the mother of a young child, I would still trust the effectiveness of disease prevention over the mostly minimal risks.

Posted: 13-03-2002 05:44 Post subject:

This subject of pro and anti MMR studies has been examined pretty fully in Private Eye. They say problems with the studies that show MMR to be safe is that either they were carried out without specific reference to Autism or they are Meta-studies of these studies. What is needed is a proper study of both methods of vaccinations, where brain function both before and after vaccination is examined. There also needs to be 5 and 10 year follow-ups.

In respect of Mercury. Vaccines are not only made up of attenuated or dead viruses they also include preservatives and substances called Adjuvants. These are nasty mixtures containing mineral oils (Freunds Adjuvant both complete - FCA - and incomplete -FIC), Mercury (Thimersol) aluminium, phenol and formaldahyde.

Adjuvants are added because vaccines alone have little chance of stimulating immunity. It is worth noting that Freunds Adjuvant is not only poisonous it is corrosive to flesh. Adjuvants have been implicated in several nasty side effects of vaccination

For information about how dangerous these illnesses are visit these pages formeasles ,mumps and rubella

Please not that the risk of complications indicated in these pages are for all ages of persons who contract it. In general the effects will be more severe in the adult and the vey young (sub 1 yo) child. If someone could supply figures about admitted vaccine damage and death it would be helpful.

Posted: 13-03-2002 18:46 Post subject:

A couple of times when anoyed by some mum acusening me of child abuse by haveing Harry have the MMR i have pointed out that they are relying on everyone else to have it so thier darling can be protected from desease.....

Aside wise i was astounded the hear that in USA its contructively compusory to have the MMR....No MMR no school, No school $500 fine or prison!!!!!!!... of course u have the choice to send to private school... as ever the poor dont get a choice, just a stick to beat them...

Posted: 13-03-2002 20:55 Post subject:

Posted: 14-03-2002 01:07 Post subject:

My dad, who is almost 70 and has a variety (!) of medical problems visited his GP a couple of years ago after cutting his hand. The GP asked when he last had a tetanus booster, and discovered that my dad was 'up to date': his comment then was 'I should probably just give boosters anyway, just to be sure.'

As for Asperger's/autism/anything else (and I don't want to belittle any of these), yes, I suspect that diagnoses depend on 'flavour of the month', that expert confirmation is lacking, and that it will take a lot of money and time on a world-wide basis to ensure that what we do to 'protect' our children is actually in their best interests.

The problem whith MMR (as Private Eye has mentioned) is that we don't know if it causes other problems - we're relying on fairly small, short-term studies. If the symptoms of autism don't show until later, it's not included, or 'it would have happened anyway' - sorry, but I don't believe that it's necessarily true.

The bottom line seems to be that MMR is 'more cost effective' (i.e. cheaper) than single vaccine, so that's the way to go. Various studies suggest that, cost aside, there's a greater risk of harming those we're meant to be protecting than with single vaccine. Surely we have a duty to be sure (and safe)?

For those who's kids have had the triple jab without problems - fine. It worked OK. But if they had then been diagnosed autistic...?

Posted: 14-03-2002 14:01 Post subject:

I know measles is a killer, but what of mumps and rubella (german measles). I had mumps and never felt that ill, is it so bad?
German measles is just a bad rash as far as I'm aware, OK it can cause problems with pregnant women, but if everyone caught it as a child all the unborn babies would be safe.
In my opinion all these jabs do nothing but weaken our normal immunity to other dieases, but I can't medically prove it of course.

Posted: 14-03-2002 23:37 Post subject:

Mumps and Rubella would appear to have an insignificant mortality rate (ie smaller than 1 in 10,000) and the complications notably exclude long term damage, apart from a very small risk of permanent hearing loss with mumps.

The encephalitus and meningitus mentioned seem to be symptomatic rather than the illnesses we normally associate with those words. Certainly permanant damage is not reported as significant (compare measles). The major risk appears to be to the post pubertal.

This raises the question of why it is necessary to innoculate such young children against these diseases considering that vaccine damage, of the acknowledged sort, will be at least as common.

One more note the term insignificant risk although coming into use at incidences of smaller than 1 in 10,000 may well be much smaller than that.