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rynner2Offline
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PostPosted: 30-09-2011 07:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prehistoric cave etchings 'created by three-year-olds'

Prehistoric etchings found in a cave in France are the work of children as young as three, according to research.
The so-called finger flutings were discovered at the Cave of a Hundred Mammoths in Rouffignac, alongside cave art dating back some 13,000 years.

Cambridge University researchers recently developed a method identifying the gender and age of the artists.
It is thought the most prolific was a girl aged five. The artists ran their hands down the cave's soft surfaces.

"Flutings made by children appear in every chamber throughout the caves," said archaeologist Jess Cooney, who has pioneered the research in conjunction with Dr Leslie Van Gelder of Walden University in the US.
"We have found marks by children aged between three and seven-years-old - and we have been able to identify four individual children by matching up their marks.
"The most prolific of the children who made flutings was aged around five - and we are almost certain the child in question was a girl."

Each year thousands of people visit the caves in the Dordogne region of western France to admire drawings of mammoths, rhinoceros and horses found within the 8km cave system, which were discovered in the 16th Century.
It was not until 1956 that experts realised that some of the most dramatic were prehistoric.

Archaeologists first determined children had produced some of the finger flutings in 2006. Unlike the sketchings that appear elsewhere in the caves, the markings are made without the application of a colour pigment.
"One cavern is so rich in flutings made by children that it suggests it was a special space for them, but whether for play or ritual is impossible to tell."
Finger fluting also appears in caves in France, Spain, New Guinea and Australia.

"We don't know why people made them," said Ms Cooney, adding that they may have been part of "initiation rituals" or "simply something to do on a rainy day". Very Happy

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-15109188
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JamesWhiteheadOffline
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PostPosted: 30-09-2011 12:26    Post subject: Reply with quote

"One cavern is so rich in flutings made by children that it suggests it was a special space for them . . . "

Forthcoming . . . the startling theory that cave-dwellers were really caravan-dwellers who buried their eggs is rock fissures. As the babies hatched, only the strongest could claw their way out, creating cavern systems under the earth.

Explains the green children, anaemic fairies and some other things . . . can I have that grant now please? Smile
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rynner2Offline
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PostPosted: 14-10-2011 08:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ancient 'paint factory' unearthed
By Jonathan Amos, Science correspondent, BBC News

The kits used by humans 100,000 years ago to make paint have been found at the famous archaeological site of Blombos Cave in South Africa.
The hoard includes red and yellow pigments, shell containers, and the grinding cobbles and bone spatulas to work up a paste - everything an ancient artist might need in their workshop.
This extraordinary discovery is reported in the journal Science.

It is proof, say researchers, of our early ancestors' complexity of thought.
"This is significant because it is pushing back the boundaries of our understanding of when Homo sapiens - people like us - first became modern," said Prof Christopher Henshilwood from the University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg.
"These finds indicate that humans were certainly thinking in a modern way, in a way that is cognitively advanced, at least 100,000 years ago," he told BBC News.

Blombos Cave on the southern Cape Coast, 300km east of Cape Town, has been giving up remarkable archaeological treasures for more than 20 years.
Scientists have been scraping down through its sandy sediments to find all manner of artefacts left by the Middle Stone Age people who occupied the limestone cavity.
In 2002, researchers described 70,000-year-old blocks of ochre. This soft stone contains iron oxides that can be used as a pigment, or colouring agent.

But apart from some engravings on the blocks, there was little hard evidence to determine the precise purpose of the Blombos ochre. The new items seem to have had a much more obvious use - as the equipment to process paints.
The finds include abalone shells with ochre residues inside. There are tools made of quartzite that were presumably employed to hammer and grind ochre into a powder in the shells. And there is evidence that charcoal and oil from seal bones were being added to the mix. It seems bone implements were also being used to turn and lift the paint pastes.

All these artefacts were found together, almost as if someone had put them down intending to retrieve them at a later time, but then never coming back. Sands blown in through the cave entrance subsequently buried the kits and locked them away until they were excavated in 2008.
In the intervening three years, the finds have been subjected to a series of tests and assessments.

Ochre can have non-artistic applications such as an additive in glues, but co-researcher Francesco d'Errico from the University of Bordeaux says the analysis of the residues in the shells points strongly to the production of paints.
"The absence of a resin or a wax suggests the ochre was not used to make a glue or a mastic. We think it may have been used to make a paint or a design," he explained.

Prof Henshilwood added: "It's possible the paint was used to paint bodies, human skin. It could have been used to paint designs on leather or other objects. It could have been used for paintings on walls, although the surfaces of southern African caves are not ideal for the long-term preservation of rock art."

The mere fact though that paints are being manufactured in a systematic way is indicative of a level of advanced thinking.
It would have required a high degree of planning to bring together all of the elements of the kits; and if art really was the purpose, it suggests the cave dwellers of Blombos were capable of symbolic thought - the ability to let one thing represent another in the mind.
This ability has been posited as the giant leap in human evolution that set our species apart from the rest of the animal world.

Understanding when and where this behaviour first emerged is a key quest for scientists studying human origins.
Until now, arguably the earliest examples of conceptual thinking were the pieces of shell jewellery discovered at Skhul Cave in Israel and from Oued Djebbana in Algeria.
These artefacts have been dated to 90,000-100,000 years ago. The Blombos paint kits now sit alongside these other finds.

Prof Chris Stringer from London's Natural History Museum commented: "Twenty or 30 years ago, there was a view that Europe was really the place where all the big action was taking place - wonderful painted caves 30,000-35,000 years ago, and people decorating their bodies.
"We now know that this behaviour goes back far further in Africa; it goes back to 100,000 years, perhaps even more than 100,000 years.
"People were starting to express social identity in completely new ways. And there is a view that this behaviour is linked with complex language. So, it may indicate these people were communicating in a fully modern way," he told BBC News.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15257259
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rynner2Offline
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PostPosted: 08-11-2011 07:58    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ancient horses' spotted history reflected in cave art
By Jennifer Carpenter, Science reporter, BBC News

Scientists have found evidence that leopard-spotted horses roamed Europe 25,000 years ago alongside humans.
Until now, studies had only recovered the DNA of black and brown coloured coats from fossil specimens.
New genetic evidence suggests "dappled" horses depicted in European cave art were inspired by real life, and are less symbolic than previously thought.
The findings are published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

Horses, which were the most abundant large mammal roaming Eurasian 25,000 years ago, were a key component of early European diets.
So it is not surprising that the cave art of this time had a certain equestrian flare - horses make up 30% of the animals depicted in European cave paintings from this era.

Biologists, interested in the diversity of European animals before the last Ice Age, are interested in how accurately these early artistic impressions portrayed the colouring of the horses that lived alongside the ancient humans.
"It was critical to ensure that the horse depictions from the cave paintings were based on real-life experiences rather than products of the imagination," explained lead author Arne Ludwig from The Leibniz Institute for Zoo and Wildlife Research in Berlin.

In previous work, Dr Ludwig, and his colleagues, recovered only the DNA of black and brown coat colours from the prehistoric horse bones.
But the dappled coats of the 25,000 year horses depicted at the Pech Merle cave complex in France convinced the team to take a second look.

By revisiting the fossil DNA of 31 horse specimens collected from across Europe, from Siberia to the Iberian Peninsula, the researchers found that six of the animals carried a mutation that causes modern horses to have white and black spots.
Of the remaining 25 specimens, 18 were brown coloured and six were black.

Dr Ludwig explained that all three of the horse colours - black, brown and spotted - depicted in the cave paintings have now been found to exist as real coat-colours in the ancient horse populations.
The researchers say that these three colours likely provided enough variation for humans to create the diversity of coat colours and patterns seen in modern horses.

The domestication of horses, which produced modern breeds, is thought to have begun about 4,600 years old in the steppe between modern Ukraine and Kazakhstan

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15619885
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PostPosted: 13-02-2012 00:23    Post subject: Neanderthal cave paintings Reply with quote

Cave paintings in Malaga, Spain, could be the oldest yet found – and the first to have been created by Neanderthals.

Looking oddly akin to the DNA double helix, the images in fact depict the seals that the locals would have eaten, says José Luis Sanchidrián at the University of Cordoba, Spain. They have "no parallel in Palaeolithic art", he adds. His team say that charcoal remains found beside six of the paintings – preserved in Spain's Nerja caves – have been radiocarbon dated to between 43,500 and 42,300 years old.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn21458-first-neanderthal-cave-paintings-discovered-in-spain.html
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PostPosted: 15-06-2012 00:15    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
First Painters May Have Been Neanderthal, Not Human
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/06/neanderthal-cave-paintings/
By Brandon KeimEmail Author June 14, 2012 | 2:10 pm | Categories: Anthropology, Brains and Behavior

European cave paintings are older than previously thought, raising the possibility that Neanderthals rather than Homo sapiens were the earliest painters.

That’s not yet certain: The paintings may have been made by humans at an unexpectedly early date, which would itself raise intriguing questions, though none so tantalizing as Neanderthal painters.

“It would not be surprising if the Neanderthals were indeed Europe’s first cave artists,” said João Zilhão, an archaeologist at Spain’s University of Barcelona, at a press conference on June 13.


Researchers led by Zilhão and Alistair Pike of the United Kingdom’s University of Bristol measured the ages of 50 paintings in 11 Spanish caves. The art, considered evidence of sophisticated symbolic thinking, has traditionally been attributed to modern humans, who reached Europe about 40,000 years ago.

Traditional methods of dating cave paintings, however, are relatively clumsy. Even the previous best technique — carbon dating, or translating amounts of carbon molecule decay into measurements of passing time — couldn’t discern differences of a few thousand years.

Instead of carbon, Pike and João Zilhão’s team calibrated their molecular clocks by studying mineral deposits that form naturally on cave surfaces, including paintings. The thicker the deposits, the older the painting. And as the researchers describe in a June 14 Science paper, some of the paintings are very old indeed.

"Anyone ... could walk into El Castillo cave and see a Neanderthal hand on the wall."
– Alistair Pike
Some handprint outlines are at least 37,000 years old. Several red circles are at least 41,000 years old and may be several thousand years older. That’s 10,000 years older than paintings in France, which until now were considered the oldest cave art.
If H. sapiens made the Spanish paintings, they would have needed to arrive in Europe already possessing a symbolic art tradition, something for which there’s no other evidence.

Alternatively, humans may have arrived in Europe and promptly learned to paint, raising the question of why such an important cultural leap occurred so suddenly, in that particular place. Maybe something about the environment, such as competition with Neanderthals, made symbolic thinking important.

Or — and this is still just a hypothesis, one that needs to be tested by dating of many more paintings — the artists were not human. Maybe they were Neanderthals.

If so, the paintings would be a pièce de résistance addition to a decade of Neanderthal research that’s showed how our closest evolutionary relatives, long considered less intelligent than humans, were truly sophisticated thinkers capable of symbolism, social planning and empathy. Paintings would provide the last bit of evidence needed to throw out the image of Neanderthals as archetypally dumb, Zilhao said.

“What’s really exciting about this possibility,” said Pike, “is that anyone, because it’s open to the public, could walk into El Castillo cave and see a Neanderthal hand on the wall.”

First Image: The Panel of Hands in El Castillo Cave, Spain. The hand stencils are dated to 37,300 years old and the red disk to 40,600 years old, making them the oldest European cave paintings. (Photo: Pedro Saura) [High-resolution]

Citation: “U-Series Dating of Paleolithic Art in 11 Caves in Spain.” By A. W. G. Pike, D. L. Hoffmann, M. García-Diez, P. B. Pettitt, J. Alcolea, R. De Balbín, C. González-Sainz, C. de las Heras, J. A. Lasheras, R. Montes, J. Zilhão. Science, Vol. 336 Issue 6087, June 15 2012.
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jimv1Offline
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PostPosted: 17-06-2012 10:10    Post subject: Reply with quote

From a red dot on a cave wall to Damian Hirst's dot paintings.

We've come a long way in 40,000 years.
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PostPosted: 30-06-2012 19:56    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Gower cave reindeer carving is Britain's oldest rock art
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-18648683

The engraving may be the oldest rock art in north-western Europe

Related Stories

In Pictures: Rock art in Wales
Red dot becomes 'oldest cave art'
'Exciting' Ice Age rock art find

A reindeer engraved on the wall of a cave in south Wales has been confirmed as the oldest known rock art in Britain.

The image in Cathole Cave on Gower, south Wales was created at least 14,000 years ago, said Bristol University.

Archaeologist Dr George Nash found the engraving while exploring a rear section of the cave in September 2010.

He said uranium dating showed it was the oldest rock art in the British Isles, if not north-western Europe.

The reindeer was engraved over a mineral deposit known as a speleothem, carved using a sharp-pointed tool, probably made of flint, by an artist using his or her right hand.

The animal's elongated torso has been infilled with irregular-spaced vertical and diagonal lines, whilst the legs and stylised antlers comprise simple lines.

Red Lady of Paviland
The minimum date is around 12,500 BC or 14,500 BP (years before present, which is terminology used by archaelogists), with a plus or minus of 560 years.

"The earlier date is comparable with uranium-series dating of flowstone that covers engraved figures within Church Hole Cave at Creswell along the Nottinghamshire/Derbyshire border," said Dr Nash, from Bristol University's Department of Archaeology and Anthropology.

"However, the new minimum date of 14,505 plus or minus 560 years BP makes the engraved reindeer in south Wales the oldest rock art in the British Isles, if not north-western Europe."

The limestone cliffs along the Gower coast are known for their archaeological importance.

The Red Lady of Paviland, actually the remains of a young man, is the earliest formal human burial to have been found in western Europe, around 29,000 years old.

It was discovered at Goat's Hole Cave at Paviland on Gower in 1823 by William Buckland, then a geology professor at Oxford University.

Earlier in June, a team from Bristol University confirmed that cave art discovered in El Castillo, Spain, was the oldest in Europe at more than 40,000 years old.
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oldroverOffline
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PostPosted: 30-06-2012 20:38    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I'm pleased that it turned out to be that age, initially they said it was only 12,500 years old.

Haven't been down to see it again this year yet, probably pop down next week. Though the fact that they've released the name of the cave, although it was easy to work out from last year's article, probably means they've probably gated it off.

And the Pavilland burial is actually 33,000+ not 29,000 as stated in the article.

Thanks for posting that ramonmercado I'd missed this.
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PostPosted: 08-12-2012 23:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

Artists today? Not a patch on Ugh.

Quote:
Cavemen were better at drawing animals than modern artists
December 5th, 2012 in Other Sciences / Archaeology & Fossils

This is a prehistoric illustration of an elephant from the Libian Tadrart Acacus. Credit: Citation: Horvath G, Farkas E, Boncz I, Blaho M, Kriska G (2012) Cavemen Were Better at Depicting Quadruped Walking than Modern Artists: Erroneous Walking Illustrations in the Fine Arts from Prehistory to Today. PLoS ONE 7(12): e49786. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0049786

Prehistoric artists were better at portraying the walk of four-legged animals in their art than modern man, according to new research published December 5 in the open access journal PLoS ONE by Gabor Horvath and colleagues from Eotvos University (Budapest), Hungary.

Most quadrupeds have a similar sequence in which they move each limb as they walk, trot or run, and this sequence was studied and outlined in the early 1880s by Eadweard Muybridge. The authors examined prehistoric and modern artwork ranging from cave paintings of cows and elephants to statues and paintings of horses, elephants and other quadrupeds in motion to see how well these artistic depictions matched the scientific observations of animal motion.

They found that the majority of depictions of these animals walking or trotting had their legs incorrectly positioned, but the prehistoric paintings had the lowest error rates of 46.2%, whereas modern pre-Muybridgean art depicted animal motion incorrectly 83.5% of the time. This error rate decreased to 57.9% after 1887. Whether these differences were due to artistic license with imagery or lack of understanding of animal movement isn't clear, say the authors.

More information: Horvath G, Farkas E, Boncz I, Blaho M, Kriska G (2012) Cavemen Were Better at Depicting Quadruped Walking than Modern Artists: Erroneous Walking Illustrations in the Fine Arts from Prehistory to Today.
PLoS ONE 7(12): e49786. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0049786

Provided by Public Library of Science

"Cavemen were better at drawing animals than modern artists." December 5th, 2012. http://phys.org/news/2012-12-cavemen-animals-modern-artists.html
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PostPosted: 09-12-2012 22:06    Post subject: Reply with quote

That paper has a number of dodgy points about it:
http://averyremoteperiodindeed.blogspot.com/2012/12/cavemen-quadrupeds-and-science-oh-my.html

Beginning with:
Quote:
anyone using the word 'cavemen' with a straight face in a scientific publication today cannot be taken to know anything about the time period in question;
and ending with a problem with the methodology.
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PostPosted: 06-04-2013 19:27    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could have started a new thread entitled 'THE BASTARDS!', but I won't as this subject has already come up on this thread.

I took two visitors down to Cat Hole today to show them the engraving, when we arrived though, the whole bloody cave was fenced off. I understand that it needs to be protected and that's fine, but people have been freely going in and out of there for, as the engraving proved, thousands of years, surely a bit of perspex would have been enough. If not and they absolutely can't bear the thought of the public seeing it, then why not just fence off the small side chamber it's in.

It's as if now that they've found something of value that they can't remove from there, they don't think it's fitting for the public to be able to see.

We've lost a little bit of the wild, I'm really bloody offended by this.
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PostPosted: 23-05-2013 12:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Cave paintings in Mexico: Carvings uncovered in Burgos
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-22632301

Archaeologists found more than 1,500 paintings in one cave of the Burgos region

Archaeologists in Mexico have found 4,926 well-preserved cave paintings in the north-eastern region of Burgos.

The images in red, yellow, black and white depict humans, animals and insects, as well as skyscapes and abstract scenes.

The paintings were found in 11 different sites - but the walls of one cave were covered with 1,550 scenes.

The area in which they were found was previously thought not to have been inhabited by ancient cultures.


The paintings suggest that at least three groups of hunter-gatherers dwelled in the San Carlos mountain range.

Experts have not yet been able to date the paintings, but hope to chemically analyse their paint to find out their approximate age.

'No objects'
"We have not found any ancient objects linked to the context, and because the paintings are on ravine walls and in the rainy season the sediments are washed away, all we have is gravel," said archaeologist Gustavo Ramirez, from the Mexican National Institute of Anthropology and History (Inah).

In one of the caves, the experts found depictions of the atlatl, a pre-Hispanic hunting weapon that had not yet been seen in other paintings in the Tamaulipas state.


The paintings are being considered an important find because they document the presence of pre-Hispanic peoples in a region where "before it was said that nothing was there", Mr Ramirez said.

Another archaeologist involved in the Inah study, Martha Garcia Sanchez, said that very little is known about the cultures who dwelled in Tamaulipas.

"These groups escaped the Spanish rule for 200 years because they fled to the Sierra de San Carlos where they had water, plants and animals to feed themselves," she said.

The findings were presented during the second meeting of Historic Archaeology, in Mexico's National History Museum.
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PostPosted: 09-07-2013 12:18    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Were Paleolithic Cave Painters High on Psychedelic Drugs?
http://www.alternet.org/drugs/paleolithic-cave-painters-were-high-psychedelic-drugs-scientists-suggest-using-ingenious?paging=off

Scientists Propose Ingenious Theory for Why They Might Have Been
Science finds evidence of a biological-hallucinogenic basis for seeing geometric patterns.
July 8, 2013 |

Prehistoric cave paintings across the continents have similar geometric patterns not because early humans were learning to draw like Paleolithic pre-schoolers, but because they were high on drugs, and their brains—like ours—have a biological predisposition to "see" certain patterns, especially during consciousness altering states.

This thesis—that humanity’s earliest artists were not just reeling due to mind-altering activities, but deliberately sought those elevated states and gave greater meaning to those common visions—is the contention of a new paper by an international research team.

Their thesis intriguingly explores the “biologically embodied mind,” which they contend gave rise to similarities in Paleolithic art across the continents dating back 40,000 years, and can also be seen in the body painting patterns dating back even further, according to recent archelogical discoveries.

At its core, this theory challenges the long-held notion that the earliest art and atrists were merely trying to draw the external world. Instead, it sees cave art as a deliberate mix of rituals inducing altered states for participants, coupled with brain chemistry that elicits certain visual patterns for humanity’s early chroniclers.

Put another way, if Jackson Pollock could get drunk and make his splatter paintings while his his head was spinning, primitive men and women could eat pyschedelic plants and commence painting on cave walls—in part, presenting the patterns prompted by brain biochemistry but seen as having super-sensory significance.

“The prevalence of certain geometric patterns in the symbolic material culture of many prehistoric cultures, starting shortly after the emergence of our biological species and continuing in some indigenous cultures until today, is explained in terms of the characteristic contents of biologically determined hallucinatory experience,” the researchers hypothesize.

Of course, you can’t just posit that cave painters were doing prehistoric drugs without raising a few questions, such as why they gravitated—and kept gravitating—to the same kinds of shapes? The scientists start by citing decades-old research exploring drug use in indigenous cultures that suggest some hallucinations are induced by the brain seeing “neural” patterns—literally the cellular structure of brains.

“Researchers also generally claim that the geometric hallucinations experienced by the subject are mental representations of these neural patterns,” they write. “However, while these neural models are capable of reproducing some of the geometric patterns that are found in prehistoric art and non-ordinary visual experiences, their range remains severely limited.”

So brain biology plays a role, but it’s not enough to account for ancient pop art taste and trends! The brain might be generating the same kinds of patterns, but the early artist-shamans went further. Like many consciousness-exploring humans today, apparently they not only liked what they saw and created rituals to inspire their art, but they also believed that what they saw was more special than than the grind of their daily lives.

“We speculate that the self-sustaining dynamics may account for why these geometric hallucinations were experienced as more significant than other phenomena, and that at the same time their underlying neural dynamics may have served to mediate and facilitate a form of imaginary sense-making that is not bound to immediate surroundings,” the scientists say.

Translated, that knotty sentence comes down to this: The cave painters had rituals that involved taking drugs (undoubtedly plants) that they consumed in a frenzy to get to this creative state. This behavior and the same results were noted by 1960s-era academics studying the effects of peyote, a hallucinogenic cactus found in North America.

“The non-ordinary visual experiences were often characterized by similar kinds of abstract geometric patterns, which he classified into four categories of form constants: (1) gratings, lattices, fretworks, filigrees, honeycombs, and checkerboards; (2) cobwebs; (3) tunnels and funnels, alleys, cones, vessels; and (4) spirals,” they write, citing peyote research. “Intriguingly, these form constants turned out to resemble many of the abstract motifs that are often associated with prehistoric art from around the world, including Paleolithic cave art in Europe.”

But why would people across continents and cultures be drawn to record the same shapes?

“Of course, it still remains to be explained why these particular motifs were highly regarded by the artists and how these people became artists capable of symbolic expression in the first place,” they write. “It makes sense to investigate whether the biological mechanisms underlying the production of these visual phenomena is amenable to an analysis in terms of Turing instabilities [a scientific name for biochemical reaction in the brain that ties it to a propensity for certain patterns].”

The paper gets very technical, but the images that are said to be generated by specific neural centers tied to images do resemble the templates for lots of 1960s poster artists, such as Peter Max and San Francisco’s psychedelic rock scene.

Why did they gravitate to these patterns? Because the imagery was seen or sensed while having a super-sensory experience and therefore seemed to be imbued with cosmic significance. Put another way, people who are high as kites tend to find magic in simple details.

“When these visual patterns are seen during altered states of consciousness they are directly experienced as highly charged with significance,” they posit. “In other words, the patterns are directly perceived as somehow meaningful and thereby offer themselves as salient motifs for use in rituals.”

The scientists admit that straighter-laced science is not quite ready for this explanation.

“Clearly, neurophenomenology is currently not advanced enough to explain the particular content of these experiences, but it does successfully explain why the experiences are characterized by such an intensely felt significance,” they write.

The paper is fascinating. For one, if it’s true—and why not?—one can posit that humanity has evolved. All one needs to do is open a book on the art from the ongoing Burning Man festivals in the Nevada desert. Much of the expression there seems to be a consequence of a deliberate process of consciousness-expanding ritual and subsequent creartivity. And compared to cave walls, it’s a bit more diverse and rarified.

Steven Rosenfeld covers democracy issues for AlterNet and is the author of "Count My Vote: A Citizen's Guide to Voting" (AlterNet Books, 2008).
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PostPosted: 09-07-2013 16:53    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've heard the joke about children's TV show makers being on drugs often enough, but this is going too far (back).
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