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Posted: 01-10-2013 20:49 Post subject:

I like them but its wretchedly wordy.

Why don't we ban ill fitting shoes? Peoples health would be better without them.

Posted: 01-10-2013 21:22 Post subject:

Posted: 01-10-2013 21:32 Post subject:

Posted: 01-10-2013 21:36 Post subject:

I'm puttin' on my black-face, my burka and my tail! Monster

Posted: 01-10-2013 21:49 Post subject:

Firstly, I don't think there is any equivalence between burkas and T-shirts/tattoos/short skirts, which appeared to be PM's original argument.

Secondly, there is a serious question as to the extent to which Islamic dress for women is voluntary. I doubt very much whether the women in my London borough who I saw every day over the Summer sweating in what is essentially a duvet while their husbands walked 3 steps in front of them wearing jeans and t shirts were really wearing something so hot and uncomfortable because they really wanted to. I appreciate that this is a difficult area because it may be some particularly fanatical women would indeed wish to dress in this way. However I am sure they are in a pretty small minority and "supporting women's right to dress how they want" can morph very quickly into "not doing anything about men forcing their womenfolk to walk around in a garment which prevents them from interacting with the world.

Thirdly, there is a security concern. Some of the Kenyan mall attackers apparently entered the building dressed in burkas and at least one of the 21/7 bombers fled the country disguised in such an outfit.

Fourthly, there is a "when in Rome" aspect to this. In the West it is generally seen as very rude to cover ones face and the niqab is one of those rare issues that seems to unite almost everyone across the political spectrum in Europe. It is widely disliked by conservatives and feminists alike. Veiled women do not interact with anyone around him and the impression given is one of total disdain for Western values. Areas with large numbers of veiled women around can feel threatening and unpleasant for other residents.

None of these factors lead necessarily to an absolute ban on the niqab/burka but I think it is reasonable for Western countries to take steps to make clear that society disapproves of such garb. Banning it in public sector buildings including schools, universities, GPs surgeries and Job Centres - and giving a clear steer to the private sector that they will not be sanctioned from excluding those with full face coverings from their premises - might be the right sort of space in which to end up.

Posted: 01-10-2013 22:02 Post subject:

You do have a bee in your bonnet about Islam, Quake.

Posted: 01-10-2013 22:21 Post subject:

Posted: 01-10-2013 22:35 Post subject:

Posted: 01-10-2013 22:52 Post subject:

Posted: 02-10-2013 08:10 Post subject:

I think there are two sides to this, one I'm qualified to discuss and one, for several reasons , I'm not.

First, there is the question of law, security and communication . I agree with the position set out on P_M's lengthy quote of a few messages back, except that I'd add that anyone in a situation where they are obliged to communicate with someone - health care, government offices, etc. etc. - should have the right to ask to see the face of the other person. I would not want to deal with a doctor or have an interview at the DHSS - or whatever it is now called - with someone whose face I can't see.

Second is the question of forcing or subjugation of women which I'm not prepared to comment on because a) I'm not a woman and b) my personal (and thus potentially distorted) opinion is not only that it occurs far more than is acceptable, but also (sorry ladies) there is a part of the nature of a woman that makes them more vulnerable than men to kind of family pressure / intimidation involved. Just as they are more likely to be victims of sustained domestic abuse , and have a means of hiding it even - it seems - from themselves, or believing it is the only alternative and must make the best of it.

I have alluded to these experiences before and I will not describe them again. I despise men (and sometimes other women) who visit this kind of blackmail or abuse on their family / partners, whether originating in religious practices or not, and so am unable to discuss it rationally.

Posted: 02-10-2013 09:52 Post subject:

Posted: 02-10-2013 13:22 Post subject:

A Muslim school is said to have imposed the hijab* on all female members of staff - including non-Muslims - and insisted on segregating the pupils by gender with the girls at the back.

Health & Safety cited as School Closes on First Day of Ofsted Inspection.

The face-coverings are on the rise in this country, I'm sure. While there are greater horrors on the horizon, it is hardly to be celebrated as a sign of diversity. The eternal denials that violent and oppressive tendencies have nothing to do with statutary Islam are absurd when they are so clearly features of practical and traditional Islam. I find it grating when it is demanded we take a more liberal attitude towards backward tendencies in such an assertive and confident minority.

The concerns of many of us have nothing to do with the xenophobia of the press or the stresses which recession has imposed on our capacity for empathy. They have emerged steadily from close observation of multi-culturalism in practice over the last decades. A true multi-culturalism would police minorities with the same vigour as we police hate-crime. The spotlight which has been trained on issues such as sexual grooming and FGM is hardly to be dismissed as the mischief of the tabloids. Those of us with a close-up view of these issues are aware that the lid has hardly been raised. The urge to rip off the mask is angry and misguided but the mask as metaphor could hardly be more fitting.

The surrealist in me wants to don the burka and encourage everyone to do the same as a reductio ad absurdum. If it really is an expression of our freedom, who could possibly object! Smile

*Not the burka. Not this time.

edit: "It has" changed to "They have" in paragraph two. Pronoun for plural "concerns."

edit2: Paragraph three not two as in edit above! Not counting link.

Posted: 02-10-2013 13:51 Post subject:

Posted: 02-10-2013 14:00 Post subject: