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waitew Great Old One Joined: 15 Apr 2004 Total posts: 301 Gender: Unknown |
 Posted: 03-06-2007 08:15 Post subject: |
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| Pietro_Mercurios wrote: | | ted_bloody_maul wrote: | | As pointed out on several occasions in those articles, however, the CIA were effectively working blind through the ISI. The idea that this means they created Al-Qaeda, let alone creating it so it could later be controlled like a puppet on a string, is well wide of the mark. |
Did I wake you up, Ted_Bloody_Maul?
All that money, all that heavy armament, all the covert ops training, yet the CIA, or that sub-group within the organisation most heavily involved, have absolutely no idea what's really going on, yet they put their blind trust in foreign agents and agencies, to act on their behalf...
With no idea who's telling the truth, or what's true, or real, we live in a World in which Conspiracies don't occur and when they do, they are only instigated by foreigners.
Apparently.  |
Bullocks!!as you Pommies say..they knew!The whole thing was planned from beginning to end in Washington.Who or what carried it out is iirelavant.The people in power that day are on the public record ,a year before ,calling for it.. "a new pearl harbor".so they could sell to the American people the idea of projecting American power to secure for American interests the world's energy reserves.Afganistan because it lies between the landlocked but oil/gas rich Caspian Basin & the Indian Ocean (the only way to profitably get it out..pipelines across Afganistan) Explains why the Soviets invaded Afganistan in December 1979 too..have you got a better expalination why the Soviets took this provacative act at the height of the cold war??world being on a hair trigger..MAD..course..one slight mistake & BOOM..of course NOT..had to be a BIG prize to make that move!Well,now we know what that BIG prize is!
Sorry,But Orwell warned us 60 years ago.yet we still sit on our hand & watch it happen..cameras everywhere..reading our mail (E & snail)..what's it gonna take?I'm sorry but the time for excuses has come & gone.You are either with freedom or against it.I guess most of you are against it..it didn't have to be this way.You made madeit this way.may your grandchildren forgive you...but why should they,I wouldn't! |
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| Spookdaddy Cuckoo Joined: 24 May 2006 Total posts: 3924 Location: Midwich Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 03-06-2007 11:41 Post subject: |
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| waitew wrote: | | ...Afganistan because it lies between the landlocked but oil/gas rich Caspian Basin & the Indian Ocean (the only way to profitably get it out..pipelines across Afganistan) Explains why the Soviets invaded Afganistan in December 1979 too... |
Seems an awful lot of bother to go to considering that during the Cold War the USSR not only had ports on the Caspian Sea but that, at a rough estimate, 80% of the coastline was controlled by Soviet states and that virtually all, if not all, the Caspian Basin was Soviet controlled. I'm a bit confused as to why they'd want to pipe it in the wrong direction through hostile territory and then ship it half way round the world back to themselves.
Last edited by Spookdaddy on 03-06-2007 11:45; edited 1 time in total |
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| Jerry_B Great Old One Joined: 15 Apr 2002 Total posts: 8265 |
| Posted: 03-06-2007 11:42 Post subject: |
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| waitew wrote: | | Explains why the Soviets invaded Afganistan in December 1979 too..have you got a better expalination why the Soviets took this provacative act at the height of the cold war?? |
Hmm - that sounds like conjecture. After all, the Soviet Union wasn't all that short of oil and gas reserves (Russia still isn't today, as it's a major energy exporter). As to it being a 'provacative act' - well, Afghanistan was already a puppet state of the Soviet Union. It was not as if they were invading an 'enemy' state. |
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| waitew Great Old One Joined: 15 Apr 2004 Total posts: 301 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 04-06-2007 07:05 Post subject: |
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| I never said the Soviets wanted the Caspian Basin oil for their own consumption LOL,in fact the thought never occured to me.They wanted it to sell on the world market!It's a cash cow!They wanted it so they wouldn't go broke!They wanted it to prevent the Soviet Union from collapsing.I thought that was obvious.I never dreamed anyone would think I was suggesting they needed it for their domestic use. |
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| Spookdaddy Cuckoo Joined: 24 May 2006 Total posts: 3924 Location: Midwich Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 04-06-2007 09:13 Post subject: |
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| waitew wrote: | | I never said the Soviets wanted the Caspian Basin oil for their own consumption LOL,in fact the thought never occured to me.They wanted it to sell on the world market! |
Strange then that they don't appear to have much of a problem exporting huge amounts of gas and oil to the rest of us now, despite the fact that they don't have the apparently essential overland route control of Afghanistan would give them. Strange then that a political system not known for its reliance on the export market would undergo a costly war in order to secure a pipeline to supply a product that would be largely unsaleable due to the trade embargos that would be instigated as a result of it's actions.
I'm not saying oil is not, or might not be, part of the issue, then or now, but the constant assertion that everything is about oil seems to me to be the new orthodoxy and one that appears to disregard all other political, strategic, historic, not to mention, practical, issues.
Nazi Germany needed to secure the oilfields of Baku in order to prosecute its war, however that war was not instigated to secure the oilfields of Baku. Although oil is undoubtedly an important factor it seems, at least to me, not to be the end of all argument and in this particular case it ignores every other factor involved in a troubled regional relationship that stretches back through time from the era of the Soviets to Tsarist Russia. |
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| Jerry_B Great Old One Joined: 15 Apr 2002 Total posts: 8265 |
| Posted: 04-06-2007 09:52 Post subject: |
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| waitew wrote: | | I never said the Soviets wanted the Caspian Basin oil for their own consumption LOL,in fact the thought never occured to me.They wanted it to sell on the world market!It's a cash cow!They wanted it so they wouldn't go broke!They wanted it to prevent the Soviet Union from collapsing.I thought that was obvious.I never dreamed anyone would think I was suggesting they needed it for their domestic use. |
What makes you think that the Soviet Union was in danger of collapsing at the time? Seems to me that you're desperately trying to shoehorn the 'it's all about oil' idea into the equation. |
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| Pietro_Mercurios Heuristically Challenged
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| Posted: 04-06-2007 10:00 Post subject: |
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| Jerry_B wrote: | ...
What makes you think that the Soviet Union was in danger of collapsing at the time? Seems to me that you're desperately trying to shoehorn the 'it's all about oil' idea into the equation. |
The fact that the USSR did, in fact, collapse shortly after, might be considered a bit of a give away.  |
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| ted_bloody_maul Great Old One Joined: 23 May 2003 Total posts: 4877 Location: Quester's Psykick Dancehall Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 04-06-2007 10:09 Post subject: |
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| Pietro_Mercurios wrote: |
The fact that the USSR did, in fact, collapse shortly after, might be considered a bit of a give away. |
It collapsed more than a decade after, and partly due to, the invasion though. As far as I'm aware nobody has put forward the theory that the Soviet Union collapsed because it failed to secure energy resources. |
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| Jerry_B Great Old One Joined: 15 Apr 2002 Total posts: 8265 |
| Posted: 04-06-2007 10:15 Post subject: |
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| Yes - the Soviet invasion took place in 1979; the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991. |
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| Pietro_Mercurios Heuristically Challenged
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| Posted: 04-06-2007 10:37 Post subject: |
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| Jerry_B wrote: | | Yes - the Soviet invasion took place in 1979; the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991. |
Is 12 years such a long time in the forward planning of a One Party Totalitarian State, like the USSR?
Perhaps, the Soviets knew something that we didn't? Or, are you suggesting that they had no idea about the state of their economy, or the importance of the energy reserves in the region, not just Afghanistan, but the whole Muslim majority south of the USSR, to the continued existence of the State, both economically and strategically?
The USSR's Afghanistan War has been likened to the USA's Vietnam misadventure, but strategically, the USSR's attempt to bring Afghanistan to heel made more sense. The rise of the new Islamic radicalism obviously worried them greatly. |
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| coldelephant |
| Posted: 04-06-2007 13:00 Post subject: |
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Getting back on topic here - I could not find out why the USSR collapsed anyway - I was watching Apocalypse Now - Redux last night and saw a French family discussing how the Americans created the Viet Cong.
So I now have two groups in my mind that have allegedly been created by the USA - the Viet Cong and Al Queda.
Are there any others? |
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| Jerry_B Great Old One Joined: 15 Apr 2002 Total posts: 8265 |
| Posted: 04-06-2007 13:33 Post subject: |
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| Pietro_Mercurios wrote: | | Is 12 years such a long time in the forward planning of a One Party Totalitarian State, like the USSR? |
You may need to become more familiar with how 'forward-thinking' the USSR was. If anything, the SU had a history of getting things wrong.
| Quote: | Perhaps, the Soviets knew something that we didn't? Or, are you suggesting that they had no idea about the state of their economy, or the importance of the energy reserves in the region, not just Afghanistan, but the whole Muslim majority south of the USSR, to the continued existence of the State, both economically and strategically?
The USSR's Afghanistan War has been likened to the USA's Vietnam misadventure, but strategically, the USSR's attempt to bring Afghanistan to heel made more sense. The rise of the new Islamic radicalism obviously worried them greatly. |
It seems to me that you're trying to back-engineer current outlooks and place them on the past, to make it fit the 'war for oil' hypothesis. The idea of Islamic radicalism simply wasn't an aspect of the picture of the time. It's not something that would have bothered the SU. From what took place at the time, the initial Soviet forays into Afghanistan were with an eye to taking control away from the regime in which they had put in place. In order to extend it's power base, it moved more troops and materiel into the country, using the well-honed Soviet strategy of overwhelming force ('shock & awe' is not anything new). However, this met with a great deal more resistance than was expected and of an nature that the Soviet armed forces were not used to dealing with, and thus the war dragged on, exacerbated by foreign backing of the insurgents. One can see that similar tactics by Western countries today in Afghanistan have met with pretty much the same problems. Even after the end of the Cold War, Soviet military thinking still dominated Russian military thinking - which is probably one reason why the same mistakes were made when the distastrous First Chechen War kicked off. |
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| Jerry_B Great Old One Joined: 15 Apr 2002 Total posts: 8265 |
| Posted: 04-06-2007 13:38 Post subject: |
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| coldelephant wrote: | | Getting back on topic here - I could not find out why the USSR collapsed anyway - I was watching Apocalypse Now - Redux last night and saw a French family discussing how the Americans created the Viet Cong. |
It's an idea that this was done indirectly, because the US repeatedly ignored the young Ho Chi Minh when he petitioned the US to intervene against French infuence in Vietnam. |
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| crunchy5 Great Old One Joined: 24 Aug 2005 Total posts: 1951 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 04-06-2007 19:18 Post subject: |
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| Pietro_Mercurios wrote: | | Jerry_B wrote: | | Yes - the Soviet invasion took place in 1979; the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991. |
Is 12 years such a long time in the forward planning of a One Party Totalitarian State, like the USSR?
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How long after Al Qaeda pushed the USSR out of Afghanistan, turning it into the medieval hell hole we had to "free", did the USSR collapse into economic turmoil ?
Also didn't the USSR "invade" Afghanistan because "we" already had groups running around the country differently stabilizing the place ? |
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| ted_bloody_maul Great Old One Joined: 23 May 2003 Total posts: 4877 Location: Quester's Psykick Dancehall Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 04-06-2007 19:54 Post subject: |
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| crunchy5 wrote: | How long after Al Qaeda pushed the USSR out of Afghanistan, turning it into the medieval hell hole we had to "free", did the USSR collapse into economic turmoil ?
Also didn't the USSR "invade" Afghanistan because "we" already had groups running around the country differently stabilizing the place ? |
It took a couple of years but it was partly down to the fact that they'd been fighting for so long that they fell. What caused the Soviet Union to collapse was not the issue of energy resources in relation to Afghanistan but the fact that they had an unsustainable economy brought to ruin more quickly by trying to compete with American defence spending. Also it'd be quite wrong to say that Al-Qaeda forced the Soviets out of Afghanistan in much the same way it would be wrong to say that the French resistance forced the Nazis out of France in 1944 (or to make the same claim of Britain, even). Perhaps even less accurate, in fact.
Quite what reason the Soviets might genuinely have had for the invasion of Afghanistan perhaps only they really know but Afghanistan was in a state of civil war before their invasion and any American involvement (which pre-dates the Soviet invasion although it did not pre-date the Soviet backing of the regime which had provoked the civil war). |
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