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rynner2 What a Cad!
Great Old One Joined: 13 Dec 2008 Total posts: 21365 Location: Under the moon Gender: Male |
 Posted: 15-08-2013 07:55 Post subject: |
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| Gwenar wrote: | | I do think we're hard-wired to believe in something bigger than ourselves, outside of ourselves, that surrounds us, and is self-aware... because it's true for the first 9 months of our lives. |
Longer than that, in fact. The human infant is totally reliant on family for food, protection, and comfort, for a year or more after birth, and only slowly does the child achieve some independence, as it learns to walk and talk, and becomes aware of itself as a (very junior) member of society. |
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| Cochise Great Old One Joined: 17 Jun 2011 Total posts: 1104 Location: Gwynedd, Wales Age: 58 Gender: Male |
| Posted: 15-08-2013 14:08 Post subject: |
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| Pietro_Mercurios wrote: | Actually, with a little bit more generosity, even handedness and humour, Thomas might be making a good point. I'm also deeply suspicious of the sort of research that might harbour the possibility of subjectivity on behalf of the researcher.
Also, although it may well be true that humans are 'hard-wired for belief', what it is exactly that we're hard-wired to believe in, is still up for debate. Probably more about the evolution of social cohesiveness in social beings, than it's about invisible deities. And if that's the case, then there's probably an argument that says if belief or disbelief in an invisible deity becomes more important than social cohesion, then extreme belief or disbelief is moving off the dial from healthy, into mania. |
The thing that concerns me, whether we are talking about those with faith or those without, is people who cannot accept their own particular interpretation of existence might not be the right one. Science only starts with the big bang, and is limited to the so-far-known universe and dimensions, and even within that we are far from understanding everything. I happen to believe in a God, but I don't condemn those who believe something else as morons or naive children, as seems all-to-often to be the case with a certain kind of atheist (and religious extremists too, of course). |
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| jimv1 Great Old One Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Total posts: 2734 Gender: Male |
| Posted: 16-08-2013 17:06 Post subject: |
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Once again we're in the land of the God-Shaped Hole.
When people talk about atheists, they always bring up science and its limits.
Science is not the 'opposite' of religion. It's just a different thing and to reach out to prove the point, there are many scientists who are religious. Science doesn't necessarily have to be the filler of the God-Shaped Hole...in fact there doesn't even have to be a hole in the first place. I guess it's just difficult for those who invest so much time and effort in their PARTICULAR* faith to work out what atheists do with their minds all the time.
*And here's where we find the hypocrisy. I love this quote from Ricky Gervais channelling Dawkins...
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The dictionary definition of God is “a supernatural creator and overseer of the universe.” Included in this definition are all deities, goddesses and supernatural beings. Since the beginning of recorded history, which is defined by the invention of writing by the Sumerians around 6,000 years ago, historians have cataloged over 3700 supernatural beings, of which 2870 can be considered deities.
So next time someone tells me they believe in God, I’ll say “Oh which one? Zeus? Hades? Jupiter? Mars? Odin? Thor? Krishna? Vishnu? Ra?…” If they say “Just God. I only believe in the one God,” I’ll point out that they are nearly as atheistic as me. I don’t believe in 2,870 gods, and they don’t believe in 2,869. |
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| Gwenar Yeti Joined: 14 Nov 2012 Total posts: 49 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 16-08-2013 18:01 Post subject: |
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| jimv1 wrote: | | Science is not the 'opposite' of religion. |
I agree, but people feel differently when scientific discoveries contradict doctrine. For example, some religious people homeschool their kids specifically because the theory of evolution conflicts with literal readings of Genesis. They fear their kids will be led astray by science.
I think Cochise was talking about fear and how it affects belief. Some atheists fear that religious people are ruining the world for everyone else. Some religious people fear that atheists and people of different faiths or sects are ruining the world for everyone else. When people are really invested in their beliefs, it means they feel that beliefs alone have power to change the world.
I tend to think that most of us just muddle along doing what we do, and we subtly adjust our beliefs to suit our culture or circumstances. So, it's action that makes the change, and belief follows.
[edited for typo] |
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| Cochise Great Old One Joined: 17 Jun 2011 Total posts: 1104 Location: Gwynedd, Wales Age: 58 Gender: Male |
| Posted: 28-08-2013 15:18 Post subject: |
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I was talking about 'blind faith' and the dismissive attitude that causes towards other people's belief systems, not so much 'fear'. Science is cool, but it has little or nothing to do with proving or disproving the existence of a god or gods.
After all, someone or something powerful enough to create the universe from outside is quite capable of not being observed by the lower life forms inside - think scientist and Petri dish. On a stupendous scale. |
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| jimv1 Great Old One Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Total posts: 2734 Gender: Male |
| Posted: 29-08-2013 18:55 Post subject: |
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| Cochise wrote: | Science is cool, but it has little or nothing to do with proving or disproving the existence of a god or gods.
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If anything, the opposite of religion is history. All 4000 years of it.
| Quote: | | After all, someone or something powerful enough to create the universe from outside is quite capable of not being observed by the lower life forms inside - think scientist and Petri dish. |
so how much does a scientist love and protect the things in his petri dish? |
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| Cochise Great Old One Joined: 17 Jun 2011 Total posts: 1104 Location: Gwynedd, Wales Age: 58 Gender: Male |
| Posted: 30-08-2013 09:00 Post subject: |
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God doesn't have to 'love and protect'. He might, if certain of the religions are right about him. Or he might just be conducting an interesting experiment.
(For 'he', feel free to substitute 'she' or 'it' or 'they')
Only 4000 years? Been listening to Bishop Ussher? |
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| Pietro_Mercurios Heuristically Challenged
Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 30-08-2013 09:12 Post subject: |
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| If God is just some kind of Super-Scientist, then what and Whose experiment is He part of? This kind of philosophical speculation always throws up the problem of infinite regression towards the vanishing point of some sort of Ur-Cause for Everything. It used to set my head spinning when I was a young kid - along with trying to imagine Infinity. |
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| Pietro_Mercurios Heuristically Challenged
Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 30-08-2013 09:17 Post subject: |
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| Cochise wrote: | ...
Only 4000 years? Been listening to Bishop Ussher? |
jimv1 is referring to recorded history. Stuff about what happened in the past written down somewhere which we can read and interpret. As opposed to pre-history, where all we have to go by is the archaeological evidence without some sort of textual record. |
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