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Shakespeare
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Who wrote the work attributed to Shakespeare?
Mr Shakespeare.
66%
 66%  [ 129 ]
Mr Marlowe.
5%
 5%  [ 10 ]
Mr Bacon.
0%
 0%  [ 1 ]
Lots of different people.
12%
 12%  [ 24 ]
Someone else entirely.
4%
 4%  [ 9 ]
Aliens.
10%
 10%  [ 21 ]
Total Votes : 194

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Anonymous
PostPosted: 21-04-2002 07:28    Post subject: Shakespeare Reply with quote

As the Bard's birthday is almost here, just thought I'd ask who you all think he really was.

Facts, theories, thoughts and hey nonny nonnies here. Smile
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stunevilleOffline
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PostPosted: 21-04-2002 07:52    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think he was Shakespeare.

Why would Bacon, a playwright himself, not want to take credit for the greatest dramatic canon of all time?

Answer: he bleedin would, if he'd have written it.

Not Marlowe, dead before some of the best stuff was written (besides, Marlowe had his own distinctive manner of writing, and would have also taken credit if the stuff was his anyway).

Committee? No, too consistent for that.

Nah, it was Shakespeare.

Hey Nonny Nonny! (Baldrick! Call the police!)
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simonsmith
PostPosted: 21-04-2002 09:09    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shakespeare? What the semi literate actor?

The biography, as promoted by the Stratford tourist industry, is almost entirely guessed or invented. All that rubbish about him being at the Grammar school there etc. His initials carved in a desk. HA HA. And all that stuff about how he was abroad touring europe and fighting foreign wars whilst simultaneously leading a group of actors in London. Bonkers. You might as well visit Robin Hood's birth place. Or King Arthur's.

Shakespeare is a composite. Annoys me how people assume he is an historical character for whom proper evidence exists.

In my opinion the historical and literary conspiracists have many good points to make. Unfortunately I think that some of their conclusions are, frankly, wild.

But then I would say that since my grandfather is a Baconian and I was brought up on this story.

My grandfather - at a slightly wild but ultimately interesting American Bacon site


Last edited by Guest on 21-04-2002 09:21; edited 1 time in total
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stunevilleOffline
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PostPosted: 21-04-2002 09:25    Post subject: Reply with quote

simonsmith wrote:

Shakespeare? What the semi literate actor?

And all that stuff about how he was abroad touring europe and fighting foreign wars whilst simultaneously leading a group of actors in London. Bonkers. You might as well visit Robin Hood's birth place. Or King Arthur's.

In my opinion the historical and literary conspiracists have many good points to make. Unfortunately I think that some of their conclusions are, frankly, wild.

But then I would say that since my grandfather is a Baconian and I was brought up on this story.

My grandfather - at a slightly wild but ultimately interesting American Bacon site


I completely agree that the bit about him fighting abroad is pretty wild: from what I can gather he never left these shores (people may have confused him with Marlowe, who was a spy and definitely crossed the channel on a number of occasions).

As for being semi-literate, no proof exists that this was the case: conversely, the vast canon of works would suggest that he was extremely literate. As the case for the prosecution tends to hinge on this fact, that he was semi-literate and therefore the works were by someone else, it depends on who you believe.

And you can't compare him to Arthur or Robin Hood: whatever the status of works attributed to him, he certainly did exist, unequivocally.

Simon, can you condense the Bacon hypothesis so we can open it to further debate?
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Adam Rang
PostPosted: 21-04-2002 09:53    Post subject: Reply with quote

It can be confirmed however that his daughter was illiterate. The greatest playright ever couldn't find time to teach his duaghter to read and write? I beleive he was semi-illiterate. One piece of handwrighting we definatly know his his is on his will and its completely different to the handwriting to write the plays.
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simonsmith
PostPosted: 21-04-2002 10:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Simon, can you condense the Bacon hypothesis so we can open it to further debate?


Sadly - I don't think I can. I'll go mad and my head will implode. Also - I can't really represent the Baconian case since I don't have an adequate grasp of the details. Also - I don't believe all of it myself. Baconians don't even always agree with each other. Like all conspiracists. Some are way way out there at the distant edges of reality.

These are the bits which I understand and agree with:

1. The historical evidence for Shakespeare is very sparce. Simply that there was a merchant's son with a similar name. No evidence of any education. Was an actor. May have married. Died. The rest is made up and guessed. Part of the merry-old-England myth which we associate with Elizabethan england. Part of the myth of England.

2. The plays and sonnets are political, complex and extra ordinary. Most contain lines and ideas which appear to be directly quoted from Bacon's various works.

The US site I have referenced - whilst being annoyingly Californian - does contain much good stuff. I don't think it represents the case particularly well. But start there if you are interested.
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marionXXXOffline
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PostPosted: 21-04-2002 11:42    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a programme on BBC4 about this soon , unless I missed it...
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stunevilleOffline
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PostPosted: 21-04-2002 12:09    Post subject: Reply with quote

AdamRang wrote:

It can be confirmed however that his daughter was illiterate. The greatest playright ever couldn't find time to teach his duaghter to read and write? I beleive he was semi-illiterate. One piece of handwrighting we definatly know his his is on his will and its completely different to the handwriting to write the plays.


Yes, but a lot of people, especially women, were illiterate during the middle ages - the only people who learnt to read and write generally were people who had to do so, and equal ops wasn't exactly the rage in those days.

Universal education didn't become a reality in tis country til the Victorian age.

As for the handwriting thing, he would only ever had written the very first copy: as thius was pre-Caxton, every other copy would have been just that - copied by a hired scribe.
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simonsmith
PostPosted: 21-04-2002 12:20    Post subject: Reply with quote

Er - it wasn't pre Caxton. Caxton was born nearly 200 years before Shakespeare is said to have been born.

There are no hand written folios in public existence.

Gutenberg invented printing in 1450s.

Nor was it the "middle ages" when the plays and sonnets were written.


Last edited by Guest on 21-04-2002 14:04; edited 1 time in total
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Anonymous
PostPosted: 21-04-2002 12:34    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is indeed a programme about this. BBC4 Tuesday 23rd at 9pm. If I could get BBC4, I'd watch it (it's my BBC? My ar*e, I can't watch half the shows all of a sudden).

The programme argues the case for Marlowe faking his own death, fleeing to Europe and sending plays back to his mate Will in Stratford.

Personally, I think Shakespeare wrote pretty much all that was attributed to him. Why can't someone from a small town be a genius? Do you have to be born in London with a silver spoon in your gob to be ahead of your time?

There was a great documentary about music on last year. Someone was talking about Louis Armstrong (who was a penniless orphan living on the street before discovering his gift for music, as I recall). The guy said that Louis Armstrong was a genius first and everything else second. I think that sentiment applies here.

Just my humble opinion, like. Smile
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stunevilleOffline
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PostPosted: 21-04-2002 13:46    Post subject: Reply with quote

simonsmith wrote:

Er - it wasn't pre Caxton. Caxton was born nearly 200 years before Shakespeare is said to have been born.

There are no hand written folios in public existence.

Gutenberg invented printing in 1450s.

Nor was the the "middle ages" when the plays and sonnets were written.


I stand corrected.
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marionXXXOffline
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PostPosted: 21-04-2002 16:46    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cursed wrote:

There is indeed a programme about this. BBC4 Tuesday 23rd at 9pm. If I could get BBC4, I'd watch it (it's my BBC? My ar*e, I can't watch half the shows all of a sudden).

The programme argues the case for Marlowe faking his own death, fleeing to Europe and sending plays back to his mate Will in Stratford.




I'll tape it if anyone is interested-I could send it to them .
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simonsmith
PostPosted: 21-04-2002 18:28    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whatever one ends up believing or not about the Shakespeare authorship ... all will agree that it is certainly a fascinating era. Lots of good stuff to read. Deeply shady politics and the establishment of the English state etc. Deeply Fortean.

The Marlowe programme should be very interesting.

Incidentally - many Baconians also believe that the same author also wrote most of the works attributed to Cervantes. Some argue that Don Quixote was actually translated from English into Spanish.
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Anonymous
PostPosted: 21-04-2002 18:43    Post subject: Reply with quote

Certainly is a fascinating era. The status of the wealthy Catholic familes alone bred a thriving political (and religious) underground at the time. Not to mention the usual shenanigans of the Court.

I remember that programme with your grandfather was on - it was really interesting.

Wonder if people will be arguing over the authorship of Beatles songs and the like in centuries to come?
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simonsmith
PostPosted: 21-04-2002 19:25    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Wonder if people will be arguing over the authorship of Beatles songs and the like in centuries to come?


Well, of course, the Beatles songs were all written by Bacon. My own analysis of 'Abbey Road' has revealed that every track contains a reference to the fact that Paul is actually the bastard son of our own Elizabeth 2 and Jack Kennedy's father. Ciphers within ciphers.

Quote:
I remember that programme with your grandfather was on - it was really interesting.
He has actually been in various programmes. The best two were on Radio 4 - made by the same bloke who also did a very memorable and very odd programme about ghostly noises in old WW2 aircraft. The guy that made the programmes ended convinced (I think) and became a semi convert. Last time I met him he was writing a book about the ciphers.

Boke (Bokie sometimes .. his name is Bokenham) never came across well on TV. He always wanted to tell everything - and, of course, there was never enough time. A more sympathetic editor would have concentrated on a specic detail. Now he is very elderly and finds language difficult. His arguments are complicated and not particularly easy to digest since they relate to his thorough knowledge of ancient Latin and Greek texts.
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