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Dyatlov pass incident
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feinmanOffline
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PostPosted: 13-02-2014 02:23    Post subject: Reply with quote

EnolaGaia wrote:
feinman wrote:
... I mean no arm injuries or contusions on any of them?


The only arm / hand issues noted for any of the 4 from the 'ravine' were:

- The skin on Kolevatov's fingers was soft and blanched / whitened (indicative of exposure to wetness).

- Thibeaux-Brignolle had a 10 by 12cm 'hemorrhage' on his lower right forearm.

That's it; that's all ...


That's just.... Weird..
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feinmanOffline
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PostPosted: 13-02-2014 02:35    Post subject: Reply with quote

EnolaGaia wrote:
feinman wrote:
...

... The combined improbability and strangeness of everything combined with lights around the area in the past, and the UFO wave that year sounds much like the mutilations. I like Occam's razor and would like to shave this case with it too, just hope there aren't any nicks in it. I am sure EnolaGaia cpuld swat away the UFO hypothesis with some well aimed facts though, or make it very unlikely. ...


I'm not necessarily opposed to a Fortean (UFO, whatever ...) element having been involved.

I'm not a diehard skeptic troll ... Laughing

It's just that practically all the 'weird' elements that have come to be blended into the Dyatlov tragedy discussions are just that - after-the-fact speculations. These speculations are most often encountered in accounts that have cherry-picked a few alleged facts (often contradicting the original information, such as it is ...) and (over-)inflated them to support whichever off-the-wall influence is being touted. As time has gone on, newer accounts cite and rely upon sometimes fallacious or distorted earlier accounts.

The UFO (broadly construed ...) angle is in fact the only one that might have actually been in play that night. The area has a history of unexplained aerial phenomena. The search party themselves reported such an incident (a month _after_ the Dyatlov party perished). The geological(?) team at least 50 km to the south claimed they'd seen odd lights in the general direction of the mountain around the time of the fatal night.

However, there are plausible explanations for something weird appearing over the mountain. That site is underneath the launch trajectory from Baikonur. A new anti-aircraft missile installation had been built several kilometers to the south, and some suggest it was capable of performing initial tests around the Dyatlov timeframe. (It wasn't officially claimed to be operational until months later.)

The most obvious such explanation would be military jets doing exercise maneuvers. The main problem with this suggestion is that the nearest known fighter base at the time was at least 400 km away - an almost impossible stretch for the fuel-hog fighters of the day, and especially unlikely if they'd been using the fuel-gobbling afterburners that would most easily explain 'shock and awe' on the ground.

I do, however, admit to deliberately ignoring all mentions of cattle mutilation tie-ins. There are no cattle to mutilate in that area ... Everyone knows the menkvi (Mansi version of the yeti) eats them whole ...
Twisted Evil


Hehe! Just saw this post on my blinkering Kindle! I applaud your common sense approach to this mystery and the depth of your research, and think that we'll likely never be able to rule out or in a fortean explanation, sadly. Just like that 33rd photo.. Crying or Very sad
There is certainly a confluence of strangeness about the event!
I'm going to do the mutilation thing one more time (I promise that is all!!) But to me the similarities are STRIKING.

"The ground under the animal appears depressed, as if the animal was dropped on the site from a height leaving an impact crater.
The animal's bones found to be fractured with injuries consistent with being dropped.
Strange marks/holes in the ground around the carcass.
Other cattle avoid the carcass and the area where it's found.
The removal of eyes, udders and sexual organs very cleanly with surgical precision"

This was before any prion scare, etc. From Wikipedia (the first recorded incident(s):

"The Lady/Snippy mutilation[edit]
The first allegedly strange death of livestock comes from near Alamosa, Colorado, in 1967. The real name of the animal was Lady, but the media quickly adopted the name "Snippy" (the name of another horse at the ranch), which stuck.
On September 7 of that year, Agnes King and her son Harry noted that Lady, a three-year-old horse, had not returned to the ranch at the usual time for her water. This was unusual, given the heat and the arid conditions.
Harry found Lady on September 9. Her head and neck had been skinned and defleshed, the bones were white and clean. To King, the cuts on Lady seemed to have been very precise. There was no blood at the scene, according to Harry, and there was a strong medicinal odor in the air.
The next day, Harry and Agnes returned to the scene with Agnes’ brother and sister-in-law, Mr. and Mrs. Berle Lewis. They found a lump of skin and horse flesh; when Mrs. Lewis touched it, the flesh oozed a greenish fluid which burned her hand. They also reported the discovery of fifteen "tapering, circular exhaust marks punched into the ground" over an area of some 5000 square yards. (Saunders and Harkins, 156) The medicinal odor had weakened somewhat, but was still present.
Mrs. Lewis contacted the United States Forest Service, and Ranger Duane Martin was sent to investigate. Among other tasks, Martin "checked the area with a civil defense Geiger counter. He reported finding a considerable increase in radioactivity about two city blocks from the body." (Saunders and Harkins, 157) Later, Martin would state, "The death of this saddle pony is one of the most mysterious sights I’ve ever witnessed ... I’ve seen stock killed by lightning, but it was never like this." (ibid., 159)
After trying to interest other authorities with little success, Mrs. Lewis turned to her professional connections: she wrote occasionally for the Pueblo Chieftain. Her account of Lady's strange death was published in that newspaper, and was picked up by the Associated Press on October 5, 1967. Soon, much of the United States knew the tale of Lady’s death, and other reports of similar phenomena in Colorado emerged.
That same day, an account by Superior Court Judge Charles E. Bennett of Denver, Colorado, saw publication. Bennett and his wife claimed to have witnessed “three reddish-orange rings in the sky. They maintained a triangular formation, moved at a high speed, and made a humming sound.” (Saunders and Harkins, 157) The civilian UFO research group NICAP became involved in the case as well, and some people speculated that UFOs were somehow involved with Lady’s death.
Shortly thereafter, an anonymous Denver pathologist’s account of his necropsy saw publication. Lady’s brain and abdominal organs were missing, he said, and there was no material in the spinal column. The pathologist insisted on anonymity, he said, due to fear his reputation would be damaged with involvement in such a high-profile case.
The Condon Committee, then at the University of Colorado, sent its coordinator, Robert Low, to investigate. Low brought in Dr Robert O. Adams, head of Colorado State University’s Veterinary and Biomedical Science School.
Adams examined Lady and the evidence. He concluded there were "No unearthly causes, at least not to my mind." (Saunders and Harkins, 164) Adams noted a severe infection in Lady’s hindquarters, and speculated that someone had come across the dying horse and slit its throat in order to end its misery. Then, Adams said, scavengers had inflicted the rest of the damage to the horse.
To some, this settled the question, but Mrs. Lewis argued that Adams’ conclusions failed to account for the lack of blood at the scene and the medicinal odor.
Low reported that he’d located the "anonymous pathologist"; Low said that the man was "widely misquoted" and was furthermore not a pathologist. The man's opinions of Snippy's death generally matched Adams', said Low. Jerome Clark later identifies the anonymous man as hematologist John H. Altshuler. (Clark, 17)."
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feinmanOffline
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PostPosted: 13-02-2014 02:52    Post subject: Reply with quote

EnolaGaia wrote:
While we're on the subject of the stove ...

One of the student volunteers who first found the tent (S********; I can't readily locate the full name) was well-acquainted with Dyatlov and some of the others. He was one of the pair who dug into the tent on their own - before anyone else had seen it.

S would later claim / testify that when they found the tent site the stove was packed full of firewood, and a separate log or chunk was lying elsewhere.

Carrying spare firewood within the stove is a good tactic, and it would make the party seem a lot less like idiots (at least up to the point they pitched camp that last night).

At least one other person would testify that only the single log / chunk was present, and the stove was empty.

Others would testify no wood whatsoever was found at the tent.

It's anybody's guess as to what the truth may have been ...

If (big 'if' ...) the stove did in fact contain a load of firewood as S claimed, the doomed skiers weren't idiots for bringing it along. However, they could be called idiots for:

(a) not using it to start a fire at the tent (e.g., in a pit dug into the snow) and / or
(b) leaving it behind when they fled.

One of the sad facts is that once they got to the cedar tree they managed to make a fire, but couldn't sustain it. The most probable reason was that the wood they had available was wet. Scrambling up the cedar tree allowed them to acquire some branches, but these apparently didn't burn as hoped.

The most pressing rationale for one or more people attempting to climb back up to the tent may have been the realization that the only workable firewood known to them was back up there (as were the hatchets they needed to make do with wet wood down in the valley). By the time they realized all this, it was too late ...


If the stove was full of wood, that makes the departure even stranger. They had reason to get the hell out of there and head into the dark without adequate gear.

As for the cedar tree, it makes sense to me too that the fire went out when they were frantically going up that tree, perhaps one even falling from the tree. There were other trees around for fuel.

I think something scared the bejeebers out of them, and they might have cut a small hole in the tent initially, to look out.
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EnolaGaiaOffline
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PostPosted: 13-02-2014 03:13    Post subject: Reply with quote

feinman wrote:
Here are the things that bug me the most.

1. Why cut a little hole in the tent and then rip it open and leave in two groups initially, into the cold night? When one could have opened the flaps on the door. (If that is how the tent was damaged).


From a really cold hard perspective on the core records and testimonies:

- We don't know how many of the holes were actually made by the Dyatlov party people on the fatal night, because ...

- We don't know how many of the holes were made by the volunteer searchers who dug into the tent before actual investigators got to the scene. (Some definitely were ...)

- There's no reason to believe all the party left the tent at the same time. In fact, there's evidence indicating two people (Z and T-B) didn't descend with the rest of the group along the only known path down-slope ('main path'). This, plus the difference in their relative attire, suggests to me they quite possibly didn't descend at the same time.

- The evidence doesn't prove the tent's front entrance wasn't used. The front entrance end of the tent remained standing. The flashlight apparently left outside the tent was found atop the down-slope side of its roof at the entrance end. A jacket alleged belonging to Dyatlov was found outside the front entrance.

- Strictly speaking, there's no clear reason to assume the tent had collapsed before they left. On the other hand, larger pieces of equipment were stowed just inside the front entrance, and it may be that no one was sleeping there. An initial collapse in the center may have obstructed access to the front entrance (already partially obstructed by the larger equipment).


feinman wrote:

2. Why would two people prepared for the weather but not permanent departure, take a camera into the cold dark night? Why leave to begin with, when tired and exhausted.


See my earlier post. I think it's just as plausible that one of the ill-dressed (and more probably delusional) folks took it with them.


feinman wrote:

3. If those with their eyes gone (the two with the mysterious injuries, and no arm damage) were deeply buried (or embedded in the snow), how did scavengers get to their eyes only, and not the eyes of the more exposed bodies, on the "mountain with no game"?


The only ones missing eyes (and other facial tissues) were lying face down in a stream bed. A creek bed provides a sort of tunnel beneath the snow pack, affording access to small predators. All the others were buried under snow, and were found after a few weeks in winter conditions. The ones missing facial parts / tissues (in the 'ravine') weren't found until May (when the weather was warmer, the stream was flowing, and the 'tunnel' was quite open to scuttling animals).


feinman wrote:

4. Is it just a coincidence that so many other fatalities occurred there?


Maybe ... The biggest and most often-cited other disaster at that mountain was a plane crash. Planes can fall anywhere ...


feinman wrote:

5. What about those lights? Is it just coincidence that they had been seen in that area before?


The real coincidence is that they were reported somewhere in the general area around the last night (geological party 'way to the south) and right at the mountain only weeks later (search party).


feinman wrote:

6. The desperate scrambling up the cedar would seem to be to observe the tent area or to get away from the ground or into the air or to get anchored to an object. Why?



These queries are based on the sort of speculations that have come to overlay the basic story / facts.

If we assume they died during the night, the tent could not have been seen in the dark and / or under the heavy snowstorm conditions known to have been in force as of the time they made camp and likely to have continued. The only version of the 'look toward the tent' interpretation that ever made any sense to me is one involving an expected signal (using the flashlights).

The searchers / investigators specifically reported no evidence of large animal activity / involvement at the scenes.

The simplest explanation for attempting to climb the tree was to reach more branches for the fire they were trying to sustain. Branches were indeed broken off, and blood was found around the breaks. Only one person (Doroshenko) was noted to present evidence strongly suggestive of tree-climbing (the pants torn along the inside of both thighs).

Some of Krivonischenko's injuires might be consistent with tree-climbing, but they're not as suggestive as the tears in Doroshenko's pants thighs. Doroshenko had arm / armpit / forearm bruising and torn skin on the fingers of both hands. There were only bruises on Krivonischenko's (bare) hands, and part of the skin torn off the back of his left hand was found in his mouth.

If a threat caused them to want to climb out of harm's way, why would everyone try to climb a single tree? They pretty obviously didn't do that, and there's no evidence suggesting anyone tried to climb any of the multiple trees right there at the scene.

The whole notion of 'desperate scrambling up a tree' is fanciful post-hoc speculation.
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feinmanOffline
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PostPosted: 13-02-2014 03:16    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not a cattle mutilation! (As promised). A human mutilation, supposedly related to UFOs (whatever the phenomenon may be):

http://www.reocities.com/aliengrip/Mutilations/Guarapiranga2-En.htm

"As a matter of fact, the same peculiar type of incisions and excisions characteristic to cattle mutilation cases were found all over the body: eyes and ears removed leaving plug like holes, lips and flesh excised around the mandibles, emptied mouth cavity, removal of sexual and intestinal parts..."

In the case of cattle, the "mutilations" have shown more skill developed over time..
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PostPosted: 13-02-2014 03:32    Post subject: Reply with quote

feinman wrote:

...

Interesting! But it would seem odd for any of them to be messing with cameras in that dire state. The secreted camera seems absurd to me too! Why bother with hiding one?


It would seem maximally odd for it to have been done by one of the two people who still had enough sense (or good fortune) to be relatively well-dressed, with boots on his feet, and presumably less hypothermically-deluded than the others.

It's not as much of a stretch to consider it having been done by one of the ill-clothed (and more probably confused ...) people - who were apparently _not_ accompanied by Z down into the valley.
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PostPosted: 13-02-2014 03:36    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK - you've betrayed your promise to knock off the mutilation stuff, so ...

I'm asking you to please desist or else post in the FTMB thread(s) dedicated to that particular subject.
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PostPosted: 13-02-2014 03:53    Post subject: Reply with quote

EnolaGaia wrote:
If not, at least one person outside fell into the 'ravine' only a few feet away, and tragedy ensued with the result the other 3 fell down to join him / her.


I don't buy into the ravine goings-on, for instance the ravine fall being what caused the injuries, or everyone taking a tumble at the exact same time (they would have been distanced apart several meters). Not to mention it's hardly big enough to even call a ravine, and with snow pack (and snow padding) it just wasn't deep enough to cause these kinds of injuries. We'd be lucky enough to get away with blaming a twisted ankle on this fall.

To me, the ravine was simply the lowest possible place where a few people could hunker up to get away from the bone chilling winds that put out the fire, or even to remove the line-of-sight between them and the 'threat'. Orbs, snowmen, etc.
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feinmanOffline
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PostPosted: 13-02-2014 04:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

EnolaGaia wrote:
OK - you've betrayed your promise to knock off the mutilation stuff, so ...

I'm asking you to please desist or else post in the FTMB thread(s) dedicated to that particular subject.


Absolutely. Didn't mean to keep throwing it in folks faces. I appreciate your depth of research and taking the time to provide a detailed analysis of the situation! I think things could have a reasonable explanation, but it's the "Fortean Times" so was trying to focus on that aspect, but I'm done now.
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PostPosted: 13-02-2014 04:56    Post subject: Reply with quote

feinman wrote:
I know you are very open minded about fortean explanations Human_84, so applaud your not invoking UFOs as could do in this case Smile


It's just too sloppy for ETs in my opinion. Human mutilation cases are extremely few and far between to say with certainty. Dr. Greer might play the 'alien reproduction vehicles' card here (human operated vehicles which have been reproduced in ET likeness; essentially performing a 'fake' abduction) but the purpose there is said to incite fear and perpetuate the UFO mystery > but if you're killing everyone there's nobody left to be fearful.
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PostPosted: 13-02-2014 09:55    Post subject: Camera around Z's neck Reply with quote

EnolaGaia wrote:
feinman wrote:
... Also, why bother taking the camera out into the night if you were going to come back? ...


Zolotarev is found with a camera around his neck, and everyone assumes it's one he'd kept secret from the group. It's actually the camera everyone similarly presumes went missing from the tent under suspicious circumstances.


Makes sense...thank you...
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PostPosted: 13-02-2014 10:01    Post subject: stove Reply with quote

[quote="EnolaGaia"]
philomath wrote:


Up at the pass, using the stove may well have not been an option at all.

NOTE: If you refer back to the photo I cited earlier (tent erected in the open; from an earlier expedition) you'll see the stove is installed, and how much exterior rigging was used. I can't tell that much rigging was even attempted at the pass.


Even if they had installed the stove and had good wood to burn that night I believe would have been very difficult (and dangerous) to keep it in operation if it is true that the stove pipe was oriented to west against the strong wind....
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PostPosted: 13-02-2014 13:29    Post subject: Reply with quote

EnolaGaia wrote:
philomath wrote:
... a stove with a low short pipe sticking out...high risk of carbon monoxide intoxication....


Had they been using the stove, this would have been a pretty obvious factor to consider - especially given the nature of the stove itself.

Unless you've seen diagrams (in Russian; from Russian sites) illustrating it, you may not know that the stove was a metal box suspended on a line overhead - i.e., inside the tent's peak.

One such illustration can be seen at:

http://www.litmir.net/BookBinary/163307/1366025611/Daytloffz_group_19_palatka.jpg

I've never seen a photo of the stove in its operational position.

The main box (suspended near the tent's center point) is the actual stove. The stovepipe was comprised of multiple sections which telescoped or could be nested within one another for carrying.

I recall reading (with great effort) either a German- or Russian-language forum thread in which it was mentioned this type of stove arrangement (a) had not been uncommon back in the 1950's; (b) had generally fallen out of favor; and (c) had been criticized for posing more of a CO / smoke risk than other configurations.

In any case ... They hadn't used the stove the previous night, and they never attempted to set it up on the fatal night. The stove and stovepipes were found bundled in their carrying configuration.

The relevance to the potentially suboptimal tent set-up that last night is this ... Down in the valley (among trees; with a lot of tie-on options) they should have had no problem adequately suspending the tent's peak (to hold the stove's weight). Up on the pass, they couldn't even consider unpacking the stove unless the tent had been sturdily anchored / tied down. Not using the stove the night before may have been a matter of simple convenience (even though they didn't even build a fire outside). Up at the pass, using the stove may well have not been an option at all.

NOTE: If you refer back to the photo I cited earlier (tent erected in the open; from an earlier expedition) you'll see the stove is installed, and how much exterior rigging was used. I can't tell that much rigging was even attempted at the pass.


Even though the stove hadn't been set up on the last night, the effects of CO poisioning could still bear some relevance to the mental state of the group.

This quote from the Gas safe register website "Levels that do not kill can cause serious harm to health when breathed in over a long period of time. Long term effects of carbon monoxide poisoning include Paralysis and brain damage."
Also, from NHS Choices "However, symptoms of carbon monoxide poisoning can sometimes occur days or months after breathing in carbon monoxide.
Symptoms of CO poisoning that develop later include:
•confusion
•memory loss
•co-ordination problems "

So could the build up of CO in their systems have been the trigger for unusual behaviour?
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HenryFortOffline
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PostPosted: 13-02-2014 13:36    Post subject: Reply with quote

top thread of the moment without a doubt !

i would like to see some hyperthetical timelines, tied in to one or more of the maps

the difficulty is in trying to rationalise potentially irrational decision making, unless there is a comprehensive and rational flow through the events
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HenryFortOffline
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PostPosted: 13-02-2014 13:56    Post subject: Reply with quote

philomath are you the erstwhile OP and threadstarter philo_T ?
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