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EnolaGaia Joined: 19 Jul 2004 Total posts: 1197 Location: USA Gender: Male |
 Posted: 22-03-2013 01:52 Post subject: |
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| Human_84 wrote: |
| EnolaGaia wrote: | | This section wasn't well supported on that final night, because they could tie any lines only to ski poles. |
What gives you the idea that the tent wasn't well supported; and what was their normal alternative to ski poles? |
A photo of the tent erected on one of the previous days of the expedition, among trees, can be found at:
http://infodjatlov.narod.ru/fg3/images/TAU0020.jpg
Notice the multiple guy-lines supporting the center 'roof', connecting to two rings or other appurtenances on the peak of the tent. This suspension was done by running the lines upward from their connection points on the tent. Also notice that this suspension of the center roofline involves the tent's most numerous and densely-co-located such tied connections at any one area. A lot of that tent's 'erect integrity' was vested in those center connections.
My guess is that they tied the center connections to skis erected upright in the snow when they made camp that last time.
NOTE: This photo also shows the difference in coloration between the two ends of the tent. This was the result of having spliced together two older tents into a larger hybrid.
NOTE: Of the two large rectilinear holes found in the tent's side, the rearmost one was directly underneath these two rings / grommets / whatever they were.
NOTE: Some accounts specifically claim the search party further ripped (and / or maybe cut?) the tent open to access the interior. This means that the subsequent photos of tent damage don't represent the results of 1 February alone.
| Human_84 wrote: |
In my opinion, the well-clothed people either left the tent at a different time than everyone else, or had slept in their clothes while the others hadn't. |
Clothing items identified as belonging to the two least-clothed bodies (under the cedar) were found on others. So the least-clothed bodies didn't mean anyone left the tent so scantily clad as they were when found.
NOTE: According to my older notes, the search party claimed the mysteriously unused outerwear and footwear articles were collectively stacked / piled in the center of the tent, with some along the tent's outer edges - precisely the locations most likely to be obstructed if the tent had collapsed in the center on 1 February (and as it was found over 3 weeks later).
| Human_84 wrote: |
| EnolaGaia wrote: | | The adequately-clothed bodies of Dyatlov and 2 others were the only bodies found between the cedar / fire location and the tent |
Are you sure? Maybe I had this mixed up. I had thought the 4 who died in the ravine were the only well dressed people. |
The two underneath the cedar were not naked, but they were the least clothed bodies. This is often taken to indicate they died first. Articles of those two men's clothing were found on others - presumably taken from those who no longer needed them to try and help others survive. For example, the radioactive sweater and pants found on Dubinina (the female among the 4 found in the ravine) belonged to Krivonischenko - one of the two found beneath the cedar.
The best-dressed of all the victims (the mysterious Zolotarev) was among the ravine bodies. As far as I can tell, he was the only one found with footwear on both feet.
The 3 victims found between the cedar and the tent (all oriented so as to suggest they died attempting to get back to the tent) had multiple layers of clothing, but no footwear save for one boot on Slobodin. For example, Dyatlov was wearing a coat over a shirt and a sweater. The other two had two shirts; one had two sweaters while the other had only one. All were wearing at least 2 layers of pants.
| Human_84 wrote: |
As a brand new idea: Are we certain everyone died at nighttime and that Dyatlov was with his team during the entire incident? |
Maybe and no, respectively. These are among the possibilities that arise once you drop the 'everyone fleeing at once' theory. The official reports claim evidence indicated the party had eaten early in the evening and died circa 8 hours after last eating. Accepting these conclusions means accepting the idea everyone was dead by circa 0200 - 0400 (before dawn). In contrast to all the useful items left in the tent, they took at least two flashlights. One was found atop the tent itself, turned off, and in working condition. A second was found in the valley into which they descended, batteries dead and the switch in the 'on' position (implication: died and tossed aside).
I've never found any firm source for why they thought the final meal occurred circa 6-7 p.m. on the night of February 1. All accounts indicate the last entry in the collective diary they were keeping was for the previous day (31 January). However, some accounts give specific details about 1 February which could only have come from notes made by the victims themselves (e.g., the alleged fact that they had gotten a late start in ascending the ridge to the pass). I've never been clear on the source of these alleged factoids.
They never assembled their stove that last night, so I assume it was a cold meal (i.e., something one need not presume, absent the cooking hassles, everyone necessarily did at the same time).
| Human_84 wrote: |
If EnolaGaia is correct and the 3 who attempted to return to the tent were the only well-dressed ones, perhaps they weren't returning to the tent at all, but instead it was their first journey to the tent (a proverbial "diaper changing" (aka taking care of his lesser experienced team) in a last ditch effort to fix their mistake and save everyone's lives). In other words, maybe Dyatlov and the other 2 had seperated from the others earlier in the day to handle the food and items storage, and were making their first journey to the tent when they died. This explains why they were so well dressed, because they never undressed to sleep in the first place, and had never even BEEN to the tent while pitched in this location. |
(1) I never claimed the 3 (including Dyatlov) who died while apparently heading up-slope to the tent were the only adequately (I said 'adequately', not 'well') dressed victims. By 'adequately' I only meant 'not extremely under-dressed'. See above.
(2) Dyatlov and the other two couldn't have been approaching the tent from somewhere they hadn't yet been. The party ascended the pass from a valley on the south, where they'd set up their cache. They all fled to the valley in the opposite direction (to the north). A relatively recent online graphic at:
http://byaki.net/uploads/posts/2011-08/1314538268_diatlov_09.jpg
... illustrates the scene, though not to exacting scale. Point V is the previous night's encampment (circa 2.5 miles away). Point Z is the location of the final encampment. The points 1 through 5 indicate the location of the bodies. 1 - 3 are the ones found between the cedar and the tent (Dyatlov + 2, apparently heading back). Point 4 is the cedar / fire location (2 bodies), and point 5 is the ravine site (4 bodies).
The solid red line indicates their actual path, while the larger dotted red line indicates the planned path according to Dyatlov's map(s). Notice that on 1 February they ended up drifting westward from the ostensibly planned path across the pass - thus taking more time and forcing them to set up camp on the pass itself when sunset came.
The final photos show 4 of the party digging out a hole to erect the tent in snowy / windy conditions on the mountainside February 1. Between those four, the photographer, and the skis visible upright in the deep snow, everyone can be accounted for. See:
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m24sjfW9eM1qzn0kbo1_500.png |
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| Urvogel Yeti Joined: 24 Dec 2012 Total posts: 70 Location: England Age: 28 Gender: Female |
| Posted: 24-03-2013 21:58 Post subject: |
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| kamalktk wrote: |
Well, there's also tanned from a day at the beach versus tanned ala the leather production process. A 12 year old boy in a remote region might be familiar with the latter, as tanning leather would be a reasonable activity in such a place. |
Death and the cold do very peculiar things to a body.
If you've ever seen pictures of the numerous corpses that litter Everest, quite a few of them have a look I'd call 'leathered'. For everyone in the Pass, I could easily see a combination of frostbite, the cold and the natural changes of a recently deceased body causing changes to their skintone. Plus I doubt a 12 year old boy would be hugely familiar with such things. If he's not expecting such a thing I'm sure the colour change in a corpse would make a huge impression on him.
To be honest I don't think the 'tanned' skin is anything more than misidentification. If there's any decent photos and someone with good forensic knowledge can look at them that would help, but I really think there's not any good evidence for it. |
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| EnolaGaia Joined: 19 Jul 2004 Total posts: 1197 Location: USA Gender: Male |
| Posted: 26-03-2013 06:35 Post subject: |
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IMHO the group was already under duress (and possibly losing their rosy conviviality) by the time they pitched camp that last time.
A late start, deviation from the planned route across the ridge / pass, and mysteriously modest progress (relative to earlier days) left them exposed atop the pass as sunset approached. All at once they attempted to spend a night:
- in an exposed location (not in a valley among trees)
- without using their stove / oven
One thing that still bothers me about that last day ... If the conditions were so obviously bad once they found themselves off-course and exposed - why didn't they simply stay on their skis and coast down-slope to the valley / forest to which they'd eventually flee anyway? How long should it have taken them to ski down (e.g., to the cedar location 1.5 km from their actual campsite)? It would have been all downhill. Did they fear making camp in the dark more than they feared weathering the night on the mountain without heat? |
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| Brimir Yeti Joined: 02 Mar 2013 Total posts: 59 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 26-03-2013 12:27 Post subject: |
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| Were there any weapons in the group? I imagine bears would be quite prevalent in the area |
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| EnolaGaia Joined: 19 Jul 2004 Total posts: 1197 Location: USA Gender: Male |
| Posted: 26-03-2013 14:54 Post subject: |
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I've seen scattered claims the group was carrying a rifle, but this claim is not consistently mentioned.
The search party specifically reported they found no evidence of large animals at the tent site.
... And it was winter. Bears hibernate. |
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| Brimir Yeti Joined: 02 Mar 2013 Total posts: 59 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 26-03-2013 15:27 Post subject: |
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| EnolaGaia wrote: | I've seen scattered claims the group was carrying a rifle, but this claim is not consistently mentioned.
The search party specifically reported they found no evidence of large animals at the tent site.
... And it was winter. Bears hibernate. |
I know they hibernate. But they can be disturbed from that and a quick search shows there's also wolves in the area.
But unsubstantiated/scattered claims of one rifle does put pay to what I was thinking. |
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| EnolaGaia Joined: 19 Jul 2004 Total posts: 1197 Location: USA Gender: Male |
| Posted: 26-03-2013 18:46 Post subject: |
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Update ...
The Aquiziam site (which had been mysteriously offline the last week or so) is accessible again, so I can once again check some items I'd noted from their materials.
On their Q&A page:
http://www.aquiziam.com/dyatlov_pass_answers.html
... they claim to have concluded there was no rifle. They state the notion of a rifle was based on a photo from a prior expedition - a photo widely circulated as relating to the Dyatlov incident, but mistakenly presumed to be _of_ that ill-fated group. |
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| Human_84 We wont hurt you human.
Great Old One Joined: 30 Mar 2005 Total posts: 1374 Location: Invisible, sitting next to you. Gender: Male |
| Posted: 31-03-2013 08:24 Post subject: |
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A mildly interesting video showing Dyatlov pass in full color. No exactly a perfect tour, but better than nothing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-D3h66oyKVQ
Better yet, skip to 6:38 on the video above, and 3:38 on the video below, and note that the rock formation is the exact same one. The photo with the hikers was probably taken on the morning of the indent. Spooky.
Hiker photo compilation video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttN-LSdn1zQ |
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| EnolaGaia Joined: 19 Jul 2004 Total posts: 1197 Location: USA Gender: Male |
| Posted: 31-03-2013 18:45 Post subject: |
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I'm pretty sure the photo of the hikers at the big rock formation are the Dyatlov SEARCH party (over 3 weeks later), _not_ the Dyatlov party itself.
Multiple of the photos shown in that second video are ones taken by the search party.
The movie bits are also something other than Dyatlov's party. Dyatlov's party was carrying 4 (some claim 5) still cameras. No one's ever claimed they were carrying a movie camera.
It appears that the animated portions are the same as those shown on a recent Swiss multimedia presentation, which states at its beginning:
http://dyatlov.looo.ch/en/p/about-photos
... that the images / materials are sourced in part from the prosecutor's records (i.e., including materials generated during the search / investigation).
The blurry photo of who-knows-what that briefly appears is the only photo claimed to have been obtained from any of the Dyatlov party's still cameras. It's the final snapshot from one of the cameras found at the tent, and there's always been debate as to whether that shot was accidentally triggered by whomever (in the search party) handled the camera weeks later (as opposed to its having been taken by Dyatlov's party).
In any case, the photo of the hikers at the rock formation doesn't show the Dyatlov party. That upright rock formation is one of a set of such exposed boulders / formations on the middle of the three peaks on the ridge comprising the pass (the one typically labeled as being circa 880m in elevation). This middle peak is circa 1 km from the tent site, and the Dyatlov party passed well to the west of the rock formation's location.
Given its prominence and central location on the ridgeline that vertical formation is where the commemorative plaque was placed, along with a geodesic marker on the top of the rock. It's NOT where the Dyatlov party camped.
Let me illustrate ...
A photo of the plaque / memorial rock can be viewed at:
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6028/5890751704_06c8a16e3a_o.jpg
Now look at this tourist photo looking westward from the monument-rock on the middle peak:
http://www.uralinform.ru/media/photo/big/04_3.jpg
The taller peak in the background is the westernmost / highest peak on that ridge, and its facing slope is approximately 1 km away. THAT peak in the background is the "Mountain of Death".
The Dyatlov party's tent was pitched on the sloping side of that distant / background peak, somewhere to the right of the monument rock in the foreground.
To get a more precise orientation, refer to the topographic map image at:
http://s001.radikal.ru/i196/1002/a8/9513e9e08557.jpg
The grid blocks are 1 km square. Let's name the blocks (x,y), where x is the row (1 - 5 from top to bottom) and y is the column (1 - 5 left to right).
The monument rock is in block (2,3). The monument rock is labeled (phonetically) as "ostanets s pamyatnikom" (outlying or remote memorial).
The tent site is the red dot in block (2,2), approximately 1 km away, labeled (phonetically) "mesto palatki". |
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| EnolaGaia Joined: 19 Jul 2004 Total posts: 1197 Location: USA Gender: Male |
| Posted: 31-03-2013 18:53 Post subject: |
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This photo:
http://docs.podelise.ru/pars_docs/animal_refs/4/3738/3738_html_m321179ad.jpg
... shows the Dyatlov party's tent site on the slope of the westernmost peak (the 'Mountain of Death'). The triangle in the center of the photo is the location of their tent.
As you can see without the snowpack, there's significantly more slope than the search party photos suggest. |
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| Human_84 We wont hurt you human.
Great Old One Joined: 30 Mar 2005 Total posts: 1374 Location: Invisible, sitting next to you. Gender: Male |
| Posted: 01-04-2013 19:36 Post subject: |
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| EnolaGaia wrote: | This photo:
http://docs.podelise.ru/pars_docs/animal_refs/4/3738/3738_html_m321179ad.jpg
... shows the Dyatlov party's tent site on the slope of the westernmost peak (the 'Mountain of Death'). The triangle in the center of the photo is the location of their tent.
As you can see without the snowpack, there's significantly more slope than the search party photos suggest. |
Any idea what the 19 degrees indicates? |
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| Monstrosa Joined: 07 Feb 2007 Total posts: 480 |
| Posted: 01-04-2013 20:08 Post subject: |
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| Possibly the slope. |
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| EnolaGaia Joined: 19 Jul 2004 Total posts: 1197 Location: USA Gender: Male |
| Posted: 01-04-2013 20:16 Post subject: |
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| Human_84 wrote: | | Any idea what the 19 degrees indicates? |
An estimation of the ground's slope at the campsite.
Many folks have attempted to evaluate the effective slope of the ground at the tent location, with estimates typically running in the range from 19 - 24 degrees off horizontal.
Circa 25 degrees is the commonly cited lower bound for obvious avalanche risk, though this doesn't mean avalanches are impossible at that low an amount of slope.
The estimated degree of slope at the tent site is plenty enough for a localized 'snow slip' (shift downslope of an adjacent snow mass, short of a runaway snow-slide / avalanche).
It also bears pointing out that the slope increases uphill / up-slope from the tent site further up onto the westernmost peak (the actual "Mountain of Death").
The most ubiquitous photo of the final encampment - e.g., at:
http://mysteriousuniverse.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/dyatlov_tent.jpg
... is somewhat misleading. The camera angle (directed downslope) gives the impression there's not much slope, much less that they'd encamped right on the side of the largest / steepest peak. Another confusing factor is that this photo shows the tent *after* the search party had dug away a considerable amount of snow (notice all the snow chunks lying off to the side). Finally, this most famous photo fails to illustrate that they were literally on the side of the mountain, not some relatively level spot in the 'saddle' of the pass itself.
There's a variation on the avalanche theory that proposes there was a relatively localized snow slip from immediately up-slope rather than a catastrophic avalanche from farther up the mountain. One can find multiple diagrams illustrating the tent site's slope in relation to this theory, but most of these interesting diagrams (and attendant explanations) are found on Russian language sites. For example, a Russian language example of one such diagram, adopted by a German site, can be seen at:
http://www.allmystery.de/i/t4c2244_dyatlov_95.jpg
Another detailed diagram addressing slope can be seen at:
http://www.mountain.ru/article/article_img/1031/f_1.jpg
There are multiple other diagrams and annotated photos illustrating estimated slope at the tent site. |
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| EnolaGaia Joined: 19 Jul 2004 Total posts: 1197 Location: USA Gender: Male |
| Posted: 01-04-2013 20:28 Post subject: |
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This annotated photo (one of the last photos taken by the Dyatlov party itself):
http://www.alpklubspb.ru/ass/dyatlov_123.jpg
... illustrates estimation of the snow pack's slope literally at the time they were digging out a level niche for pitching the tent that last day.
NOTE: There's actually a lot of interesting analytical discussions and illustrations to be found on the net - provided you are willing to prowl through Russian (and some German) sites and navigate to sites more interested in skiing / mountaineering than Forteana, etc. |
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| EnolaGaia Joined: 19 Jul 2004 Total posts: 1197 Location: USA Gender: Male |
| Posted: 01-04-2013 20:32 Post subject: |
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This photo of the search party at the tent site:
http://www.alpklubspb.ru/ass/dyatlov_37.jpg
... is taken from farther away, and gives more of a sense of sloping terrain at the tent site. If you compare this photo to the 'famous one' (cited above, with two search party members crouched by the excavated tent) you'll see how the famous pic tends to downplay the slope at the site. |
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