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| Pietro_Mercurios Heuristically Challenged
Gender: Unknown |
 Posted: 02-07-2013 11:45 Post subject: |
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| rynner2 wrote: | ...
The Yes Campaign weakens its case when, rather than coming out with positive reasons why devolution would be a good thing, it has to resort to referring to its opponents as 'Project Fear'. |
Just what are the positive reasons for Scotland staying in Austerity UK?
Project Fear is what even some inside Bitter T' Gither have called their campaign.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-story-of-project-fear/ |
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rynner2 What a Cad!
Great Old One Joined: 13 Dec 2008 Total posts: 21365 Location: Under the moon Gender: Male |
| Posted: 02-07-2013 13:05 Post subject: |
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| Pietro_Mercurios wrote: | | rynner2 wrote: | ...
The Yes Campaign weakens its case when, rather than coming out with positive reasons why devolution would be a good thing, it has to resort to referring to its opponents as 'Project Fear'. |
Just what are the positive reasons for Scotland staying in Austerity UK? |
Better the Devil you know than taking your chances in Austerity EU!
Because an independent Scotland would hardly be sitting at the top table in Europe.  |
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| Pietro_Mercurios Heuristically Challenged
Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 02-07-2013 14:19 Post subject: |
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| rynner2 wrote: | ...
Better the Devil you know than taking your chances in Austerity EU!
Because an independent Scotland would hardly be sitting at the top table in Europe. |
And that is exactly how Project Fear works. Like an abusive relationship.
As soon as you're born they make you feel small
By giving you no time instead of it all
Till the pain is so big you feel nothing at all
They hurt you at home and they hit you at school
They hate you if you're clever and they despise a fool
Till you're so fucking crazy you can't follow their rules
When they've tortured and scared you for twenty-odd years
Then they expect you to pick a career
When you can't really function you're so full of fear
Keep you doped with religion and sex and TV
And you think you're so clever and classless and free
But you're still fucking peasants as far as I can see
There's room at the top they're telling you still
But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
If you want to be like the folks on the hill
A working class hero is something to be
If you want to be a hero well just follow me |
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| Spookdaddy Cuckoo Joined: 24 May 2006 Total posts: 3924 Location: Midwich Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 02-07-2013 18:34 Post subject: |
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I believe that few intelligent people engaged in a complex discussion like this really believe that the other side of the argument has nothing going for it. Indeed, being able to see the other point of view, and even argue for it - if only theoretically - is probably the most powerful weapon available in the development of any debaters argument. If you can't do that in a situation like this, I believe that your own position is always going to be weaker.
Unfortunately politicians on both sides are now, it appears, completely failing to do anything like this. The universally applied idea that the argument against is entirely based on fearmongering is itself exactly that - fearmongering; both sides have become shadows projected by the opposing arguments. And seems to me that Salmond is as guilty of this as anyone.
Most people I know in Scotland - of either sympathy - now seem utterly bored of the whole debate, often mixed with a healthy dollop of cynicism. And Salmond, being that he is probably the most able politician involved in the issue, has to take a hefty portion of the responsibility for that stagnation. |
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| Pietro_Mercurios Heuristically Challenged
Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 02-07-2013 19:27 Post subject: |
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I don't think you can lay the blame entirely at the door of Alex Salmond.
| Quote: | http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/referendum/7669-sturgeon-calls-for-end-to-puerile-scare-stories-as-latest-no-campaign-claim-ridiculed
Sturgeon calls for end to 'puerile' scare stories as latest No campaign claim ridiculed
Newsnet Scotland. By a Newsnet reporter , 30 June 2013
Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has today called on the anti-independence No campaign to raise its level of debate as significant cracks appeared in their 'Project Fear' campaign.
This weekend's Westminster Government claim that Scots would face roaming charges when south of the border was quickly undermined by the fact that the EU Commission has already announced moves to abolish such charges across the EU by next year.
To compound matters, the claims were made on the very day that roaming charges were due to fall across the continent ahead of their expected abolition.
The latest round of scare stories has been described by the deputy leader of the Scottish Tories, Jackson Carlaw, as "silly" and by former Tory donor John McGlynn as "puerile".
Currently visitors who use their mobile phones in other EU states are hit by a surcharge. However in a vote in Brussels earlier this month, all 27 members of the EU voted to end the penalty.
The EU’s Digital Commissioner Neelie Kroes has pledged to end mobile roaming charges before the next European elections. Legislation is expected to be fast-tracked in order to end the charges by July 2014, two months before the independence referendum takes place.
The proposal would mean all calls, texts and data costs would remain at a set fee no matter where in the European Union they were made.
Reacting to the latest scare from the No campaign, Scottish Conservatives deputy leader Jackson Carlaw wrote: "Some of the arguments against #indy are becoming a bit silly."
Former Tory donor John McGlynn wrote: "Well I think the mobile phone scare story takes the Independence debate to a new low! Puerile."
The blunder by the No campaign has led to calls for a scheduled publication on Tuesday of a paper by the Westminster coalition, containing the mobile phone claims, to be cancelled. UK minister Vince Cable is reported to be planning to make the mobile claims a central theme of a paper his department will publish.
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Fully expect the outrageous nonsense & bahooky quotient from the Bitter t'Gither camp to increase exponentially as Scotland closes in on the referendum. Don't have much faith in balanced reporting from the mainstream media, either. |
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| Spookdaddy Cuckoo Joined: 24 May 2006 Total posts: 3924 Location: Midwich Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 02-07-2013 19:51 Post subject: |
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Yes. The problem I have is that, while I accept the No campaign is doing itself absolutely no favours with some of it's claims, everything that doesn't favour the Yes campaign is now - and has been for quite a long time - labelled as a scare story. And I don't think, in the long run, that's going to do the latter any favours either.
But, I'd agree - the No lot need to sort their act out. A little bit of simple judgement wouldn't go amiss. (In fact, I still can't entirely shake the sneaking suspicion which overcomes me sometimes that the entire No camp are working for the opposition.) |
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| gncxx King-Size Canary
Great Old One Joined: 25 Aug 2001 Total posts: 13561 Location: Eh? Gender: Male |
| Posted: 02-07-2013 20:24 Post subject: |
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| The Cybernats' campaign of intimidation isn't doing them any favours either, just ask Susan Calman and Chris Hoy for example. |
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| Spookdaddy Cuckoo Joined: 24 May 2006 Total posts: 3924 Location: Midwich Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 02-07-2013 21:23 Post subject: |
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| gncxx wrote: | | The Cybernats' campaign of intimidation isn't doing them any favours either, just ask Susan Calman and Chris Hoy for example. |
Yep. From what I can recall of them Chris Hoy's comments were a pretty well-balanced statement of opinion on a particular aspect of which he has knowledge; they weren't anti-Independence at all - they were an opinion on a particular consequence, not a judgement on the overall argument. In fact you could quite easily hold those opinions and still be a Yes voter.
And once someone's become so oversensitive that they start sending death threats to comedians they might as well go and live in a cave and eat lizards with the rest of the bloody Taliban. |
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| Pietro_Mercurios Heuristically Challenged
Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 02-07-2013 21:49 Post subject: |
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| gncxx wrote: | | The Cybernats' campaign of intimidation isn't doing them any favours either, just ask Susan Calman and Chris Hoy for example. |
Or the way a few comments got spun into a whole hate campaign by the mainstream media? Just where was all the evidence for widespread abuse?
Just who came up with the 'cybernat' monicker, anyway? Both clever, current with its pop culture reference to Doctor Who and dehumanising.
Has it got something to do with the fact that the internet is one of the very few places not controlled by the mainstream media where the pro-independence campaign can get its message across?
| Quote: | http://www.scottishreview.net/TheCafe95.shtml
In defence ofAlasdair Gray (and the cybernats)
Scottish Review (Cafe). 11 June 2013
Hats off to the Scottish Review for organising the International Young Scotland Programme. It's such a shame that, during the piece announcing this, Kenneth Roy (4 June) felt it appropriate to dishonestly attack the Scottish independence movement using the tactics of the unionist press.
Firstly, let us look at his knee-jerk use of the term 'cybernats'. Minted by Labour's Lord George Foulkes to discredit his online opponents and echoed by the media, it is now simply used to ridicule and marginalise anyone on the internet who happens to be in favour of Scottish independence. I can give Kenneth Roy personal guarantees about the ferocity and quantity of online supporters of the union and yet, curiously, no term seems to exist to describe these people, nor are their activities scrutinised. Perhaps, in the spirit of fairness, Kenneth Roy may correct this imbalance in future.
He also hasn't looked very far into the other recent 'incident' upon which he dutifully reports: the internet 'abuse' suffered by Chris Hoy from those nasty cybernats. It's interesting that he wasn't inclined to quote any of it, since he'd probably have trouble finding anything stronger than one single use of the word 'tosser'. Heaven forfend! This is the entirety of the 'campaign' against Hoy which made the front pages of national newspapers?
He might also care to have a look for the supposed litany of insults to the comedian Susan Calman, which, mysteriously, no-one has been able to track down either. Our media seems to have fallen into routinely reporting the 'abuse' of celebrites by 'cybernats' as though it were verified fact instead of what it actually is: unionist myth-making.
Lastly, while he is perfectly within his rights to disagree with Alasdair Gray's remarks in the 'Settlers and Colonists' essay, he is simply wrong when he claims Gray wrote about the 'lack of contribution' by incomers to Scotland. Gray makes it quite clear in his essay that he believes the majority of English 'settlers' are a positive presence in Scotland, unlike the few 'colonists' who take top jobs in the Scottish arts as a springboard to a bigger one elsewhere. That Kenneth Roy obscures this crucial distinction to suggest that Gray is hostile to 'incomers' in general is a sleight-of-hand too far.
Alan Bissett |
Beware, take care, the Cybernats are coming!  |
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| Spookdaddy Cuckoo Joined: 24 May 2006 Total posts: 3924 Location: Midwich Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 02-07-2013 22:33 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | ...He also hasn't looked very far into the other recent 'incident' upon which he dutifully reports: the internet 'abuse' suffered by Chris Hoy from those nasty cybernats. It's interesting that he wasn't inclined to quote any of it, since he'd probably have trouble finding anything stronger than one single use of the word 'tosser'. Heaven forfend! This is the entirety of the 'campaign' against Hoy which made the front pages of national newspapers?... |
Actually, it's not the 'entirety' at all - plenty of examples were quoted, and are still available online, so god knows where this bloke got his information from, unless of course he's being disingenuous and trying to play games with the strength of individual words used - which no-one ever claimed it was about in the first place.
Oh, hold on I forgot, he couldn't have done; they made it all up - and this guy didn't - because the entire Yes campaign is painted with the holy light of manifest destiny.
| Quote: | | I can give Kenneth Roy personal guarantees about the ferocity and quantity of online supporters of the union and yet, curiously, no term seems to exist to describe these people, nor are their activities scrutinised |
CyberNots, perhaps. |
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| Pietro_Mercurios Heuristically Challenged
Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 02-07-2013 22:35 Post subject: |
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| Spookdaddy wrote: | | Quote: | | ...He also hasn't looked very far into the other recent 'incident' upon which he dutifully reports: the internet 'abuse' suffered by Chris Hoy from those nasty cybernats. It's interesting that he wasn't inclined to quote any of it, since he'd probably have trouble finding anything stronger than one single use of the word 'tosser'. Heaven forfend! This is the entirety of the 'campaign' against Hoy which made the front pages of national newspapers?... |
Actually, it's not the 'entirety' at all - plenty of examples were quoted, and are still available online, so god knows where this bloke got his information from, unless of course he's being disingenuous and trying to play games with the strength of individual words used - which no-one ever claimed it was about in the first place.
Oh, hold on I forgot, he couldn't have done; they made it all up - and this guy didn't - because the entire Yes campaign is painted with the holy light of manifest destiny.
... |
Feel free to prove him wrong with some quotes and links, then.  |
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| Spookdaddy Cuckoo Joined: 24 May 2006 Total posts: 3924 Location: Midwich Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 02-07-2013 22:47 Post subject: |
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| And, to be honest, given the number of terms implying negativity which are applied ad bloody nauseam to those opposing Independence, however reasoned their arguments (which, let's be honest, requires very little effort in relation to the smugness value gained - given that the pro-lobby have the luck to fall on the positive side of the semantic fence), complaining about the term cybernat just comes over as a little bit whiny. |
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| Pietro_Mercurios Heuristically Challenged
Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 02-07-2013 22:51 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10087642/Nationalists-call-Sir-Chris-Hoy-a-traitor-to-Scotland.html
Chris Hoy called a traitor to Scotland by nationalists
Nationalists have accused Sir Chris Hoy of being a “traitor” to his country in a vitriolic barrage of internet abuse directed at the Olympic hero for warning that independence could harm Scottish sport.
Daily Telegraph. By Simon Johnson, Scottish Political Editor. 30 May 2013
Willie Rennie, the Scottish Liberal Democrat leader, added: “"First comedienne Susan Calman, then Nigel Farage, now Olympic great Sir Chris Hoy – the nationalists seek to silence everyone they disagree with.”
The cybernats posted comments about the six-time Olympic champion on the BBC and newspaper websites and the social networking site Twitter.
“Oh dear Chris you have just went from being a Scottish hero in the eyes of the Bravehearts to being a traitor, how dare you?” one read. Another read: “I’ve always said Hoy is a bigoted anti-Scot.”
Others claimed the cyclist did not represent the views of ordinary Scots because he was educated at George Watson’s College in Edinburgh, an independent school.
“Complete nonsense from the boy Hoy (schooled at an expensive Edinburgh private establishment where pupils were expected to sing God Save the Queen on a regular basis – maybe it got engrained(sic)!)” one said.
Another comment on the Daily Telegraph website read: “If he does not want to be used by the pro-Union propaganda machine then he would do well to keep his mouth shut.”
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Is that the sort of thing? At least one of those comments (the sarcastic one I highlighted), is almost certainly not from a Scot, or a supporter of independence. For the rest, is that it?
Wow! Really? |
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| Pietro_Mercurios Heuristically Challenged
Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 02-07-2013 23:08 Post subject: |
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| Spookdaddy wrote: | | ... complaining about the term cybernat just comes over as a little bit whiny. |
Of course it does. What about using it as a dismissive put down? How does that come across? Is it whiny? Is there a sneer attached?
So, whiny, or sneery? Or, whiny and sneery?
'Oh! Those cybernats aren't they awful, with their stifling of the debate. Not like the Daily Telegraph, The Daily Express, The Daily Mail, The (One Nation) Guardian, The Scotsman, The Daily Record, Aunty BBC, etc & etc. With their generously even handed impartiality.'
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| Spookdaddy Cuckoo Joined: 24 May 2006 Total posts: 3924 Location: Midwich Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 02-07-2013 23:40 Post subject: |
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I'm not much interested in the fact that Hoy was called a tosser - more in the accumulated suggestion that opinions in a democracy are all very well as long as they coincide. Personally, I don't see how the fact that politicians and newsmen do that very thing excuses its use anywhere else in an important political debate - whatever side.
In essence, I wouldn't deny that this a storm in a tea-cup - what I don't like is the Yes campaign calling it so while at the same time using it to paint themselves yet again as the only injured party in the process.
I completely agree that there are wankers all over the No campaign - that should be obvious from previous posts on this thread. What I don't see is how this obscures the fact that there are a similar number of complete twats crawling all over the opposite camp - an opinion I hold which should also be obvious from previous posts on this thread.
Polarised I am not. Confused - sometimes. |
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