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| What do we do? |
| Contact them to explain the outside world and then allow them to make up their minds |
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5% |
[ 5 ] |
| Intervene and try to modernize their lifestyles |
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1% |
[ 1 ] |
| Leave them alone, but be open to them contacting us |
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46% |
[ 42 ] |
| Do everything possible to keep them isolated |
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46% |
[ 42 ] |
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| Total Votes : 90 |
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wembley8 Home of Legends Joined: 24 Jan 2003 Total posts: 2001 Gender: Unknown |
 Posted: 12-07-2008 20:07 Post subject: |
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| Pietro_Mercurios wrote: | | There are so few tribal cultures left, that not to, at least attempt, just to leave them alone, leave them in peace and keep our and those of other outsiders, filthy hands off, seems cultural vandalism of the very worst sort. |
Believing that culture A is necesarily better than culture B without knowing anything about them is pure prejudice. It's hard to interpret your view as anything other than another 'noble savage' trope.
My point is that you're making the decision for them, you're not letting the people affected make the choice. I'd say they're the ones who should decice. And if they prefer to continue with their current lifestyle, that's fine by me.
And this stuff about 'cultural vandalism' is also prejudice. All culture is bastardised and draws in influences from everthing around it. The cross fertisilisation of cultures is what gives the world its richness and diversity. Only the BNP insist that all music, literature, theatre and food be rigoruously purged of foreign influences. |
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| Pietro_Mercurios Heuristically Challenged
Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 12-07-2008 20:24 Post subject: |
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| wembley8 wrote: | | Pietro_Mercurios wrote: | | There are so few tribal cultures left, that not to, at least attempt, just to leave them alone, leave them in peace and keep our and those of other outsiders, filthy hands off, seems cultural vandalism of the very worst sort. |
Believing that culture A is necesarily better than culture B without knowing anything about them is pure prejudice. It's hard to interpret your view as anything other than another 'noble savage' trope.
My point is that you're making the decision for them, you're not letting the people affected make the choice. I'd say they're the ones who should decice. And if they prefer to continue with their current lifestyle, that's fine by me.
And this stuff about 'cultural vandalism' is also prejudice. All culture is bastardised and draws in influences from everthing around it. The cross fertisilisation of cultures is what gives the world its richness and diversity. Only the BNP insist that all music, literature, theatre and food be rigoruously purged of foreign influences. |
What disingenuous sophistry, twaddle and hypocrisy. You are the one insisting that the choice be made for these peoples, for their own good. Risible.
I am not insisting that these people's cultures 'be rigorously purged of foreign influences', only that they be left in peace to make their own path, while that's still possible.
Not that it matters a fig what we argue about. 'Civilisation' will probably do for them all, soon enough. |
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| wembley8 Home of Legends Joined: 24 Jan 2003 Total posts: 2001 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 13-07-2008 19:51 Post subject: |
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"What disingenuous sophistry, twaddle and hypocrisy."
I guess that means you don't have a counterargument then...
" You are the one insisting that the choice be made for these peoples, for their own good."
No, I'm the one who is suggesting giving them a choice. You're not giving them any choice at all.
"I am not insisting that these people's cultures 'be rigorously purged of foreign influences', only that they be left in peace to make their own path, while that's still possible. "
You are insisting that they are kept 'pure' and free from outside influences(whether they like it or not) . How is that different? |
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| Pietro_Mercurios Heuristically Challenged
Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 13-07-2008 19:57 Post subject: |
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They're doomed.
The trick is, Wembley8, you use the word 'choice,' like the Adam Smith Institute and other FreeMarketeers use the word 'choice.' When you use the word 'choice,' you really mean, 'Hobson's choice.' i.e. no choice at all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobson%27s_choice |
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| wembley8 Home of Legends Joined: 24 Jan 2003 Total posts: 2001 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 15-07-2008 21:03 Post subject: |
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| Pietro_Mercurios wrote: | They're doomed.
The trick is, Wembley8, you use the word 'choice,' like the Adam Smith Institute and other FreeMarketeers use the word 'choice.' When you use the word 'choice,' you really mean, 'Hobson's choice.' i.e. no choice at all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobson%27s_choice |
No, I use it to mean choice. We all get to choose what culture we adopt, and you see some very interesting approaches in South America among people of native ancestry. Very few choose to live in a 'state of nature' but a lot of them do retain religion, culture, morals and attitudes, and there is very much a mix n match approach. Bolivian women have not always worn bowler hats, ya know...but they have made it their own. And I can quite understand anyone who finds plastic bowls and metal knives a useful addition to jungle life, even if it spoils your view of picturesque natives.
Now that indigenous culture is not looked down on (go, Morales) the outlook is more positive than ever. I find your attitude that "it's ok for us but not for them" patronising in the extreme.
The argument about the risk from unfamiliar diseases is one thing - and it can't be ignored - but this cultural apartheid doesn't stand up to any kind of scrutiny. |
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| Pietro_Mercurios Heuristically Challenged
Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 15-07-2008 21:23 Post subject: |
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| wembley8 wrote: | | Pietro_Mercurios wrote: | They're doomed.
The trick is, Wembley8, you use the word 'choice,' like the Adam Smith Institute and other FreeMarketeers use the word 'choice.' When you use the word 'choice,' you really mean, 'Hobson's choice.' i.e. no choice at all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobson%27s_choice |
No, I use it to mean choice. We all get to choose what culture we adopt, and you see some very interesting approaches in South America among people of native ancestry. Very few choose to live in a 'state of nature' but a lot of them do retain religion, culture, morals and attitudes, and there is very much a mix n match approach. Bolivian women have not always worn bowler hats, ya know...but they have made it their own. And I can quite understand anyone who finds plastic bowls and metal knives a useful addition to jungle life, even if it spoils your view of picturesque natives.
Now that indigenous culture is not looked down on (go, Morales) the outlook is more positive than ever. I find your attitude that "it's ok for us but not for them" patronising in the extreme.
The argument about the risk from unfamiliar diseases is one thing - and it can't be ignored - but this cultural apartheid doesn't stand up to any kind of scrutiny. |
As you well know, I'm not suggesting that these peoples be kept apart from the outside World by force. If they wanted to make contact with outsiders, it would be up to them. I am saying that what you call, 'choice' appears to be seen by them, if those aerial photos can be trusted at all, as an unwanted intrusion. I'm just wishing that, just for once, outsiders would respect their wishes.
You are right, once a indigenous culture is too severely compromised, then the its people rarely return to their old ways. This is not necessarily a good thing.
Those Bolivian women's ancestors probably weren't forest peoples, but more likely, subjects of the Inca empire, before the Spanish invaded. |
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| rynner Location: Still above sea level Gender: Male |
| Posted: 17-07-2008 12:58 Post subject: |
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A different part of the world, but this long article (with video clips) echoes many of the concerns expressed here.
Tribe takes on global mining firm
By Damian Grammaticas
BBC News, Orissa
High in the monsoon mists in eastern India there is place called Golgola where witchdoctors still make sacrifices to the gods and where the tribes believe the hills are sacred, but where they fear their way of life is under threat.
No roads lead to Golgola, only a muddy track through a lush, green valley. On either side rise the Niyamgiri hills, thick with forests - wisps of cloud wreath their slopes and a light, misty drizzle coats everything.
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Just 7,950 Dongria Kondh are left today.
The Dongria have lived in the Niyamgiri hills in a remote part of eastern India's Orissa state for centuries. They survive by gathering fruit, growing small crops of millet and selling jungle plants in the towns at the foot of the hills. The modern world has yet to reach Golgola - there's no electricity, no school, no television, no telephones.
"We get everything from the jungle like the fruits we take to the market. This is like our source of life for our Dongria Kondh peoples," says Jitu Jakeskia, a young Dongria Kondh activist. He's one of the few Dongria to have got a formal education, and he's now fighting to preserve his tribe's way of life.
"We are not paying any money to get these fruits, this is free, it is like paradise for us here."
The Dongria are animists. Every hill is home to its own god.
"Niyam Raja is our supreme god. His name means Lord of Law, he made all things," explains Jitu. "Niyamgiri mountain is the most important place for Dongria Kondh people, it is like Niyam Rajah's temple, that is why our people worship nature, they have to protect nature."
But an arm of the mining giant Vedanta Resources, one of Britain's biggest listed companies, wants the minerals from Niyamgiri hill.
The range is rich in bauxite, from which aluminium is derived. Critics say mining the hills may cause severe environmental damage, and could disrupt the Dongria's way of life.
Sitting outside his hut, Adu made a cutting gesture across his throat when I asked him about Vedanta. "If they come I will take my axe to them," he said.
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"If you compare iron ore, alumina and coal we can say Orissa has about 60 to 70% of the reserves a country like Australia has," says Dr Mukesh Kumar, chief operating officer of Vedanta Aluminium Ltd and head of the Lanjigarh refinery.
"The only problem is they haven't been developed, once we start exploiting these ores, the day is not far away when we will see the same development in Orissa as we see in Australia."
etc......
The way of life of the Dongria is still, in many ways, primitive and harsh. But they fear the sort of development Vedanta wants to bring, as they worry it may mean an end to their ancient way of life.
You can watch Damian Grammaticas' full TV report on BBC News at Ten at 2200BST, Thursday.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7486252.stm |
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| wembley8 Home of Legends Joined: 24 Jan 2003 Total posts: 2001 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 17-07-2008 20:56 Post subject: |
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| Pietro_Mercurios wrote: | | As you well know, I'm not suggesting that these peoples be kept apart from the outside World by force. If they wanted to make contact with outsiders, it would be up to them. |
How? It's not like you can travel freely though the jungle.
| Pietro_Mercurios wrote: | | I am saying that what you call, 'choice' appears to be seen by them, if those aerial photos can be trusted at all, as an unwanted intrusion. |
I don't think they can. I was once lucky enought o talk to a guy called Steve Saint about this. His father was a misisonary pilot who set out to contact new tribes and bring the word to them. He found out than an aircraft, being big, strange, anf threatening, usually did draw a hostile response. but once the locals learned that it contained people, who could drop gifts and show they were friendly, their attitude changed to one of welcome.
I don't necessarily approve of his approach, but he certainly knew about how the tribespeople felt.
| Pietro_Mercurios wrote: | | You are right, once a indigenous culture is too severely compromised, then the its people rarely return to their old ways. This is not necessarily a good thing. |
Or a bad thing. It has nothing to do with not just indigenous cultures being compromised though: all cultures change over time, including the British one. It's simply the way things are, and I wouldn't argue that cultural stagnation is especially great either.
| Pietro_Mercurios wrote: | | Those Bolivian women's ancestors probably weren't forest peoples, but more likely, subjects of the Inca empire, before the Spanish invaded. |
Yeah, but I bet they didn't wear bowler hats then. It's something from an outside culture which they have adopted -- and I don't think they have been lessened for it. Would you prefer them to wear 'traditional' headgear? How long before you accept that the bowler hat now is a sign of their indigenous culture? |
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| Pietro_Mercurios Heuristically Challenged
Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 17-07-2008 21:16 Post subject: |
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| wembley8 wrote: | ...
| Pietro_Mercurios wrote: | | Those Bolivian women's ancestors probably weren't forest peoples, but more likely, subjects of the Inca empire, before the Spanish invaded. |
Yeah, but I bet they didn't wear bowler hats then. It's something from an outside culture which they have adopted -- and I don't think they have been lessened for it. Would you prefer them to wear 'traditional' headgear? How long before you accept that the bowler hat now is a sign of their indigenous culture? |
I was actually suggesting that your example was irrelevant. Once again you've fished about across widely disparate historical and cultural examples, wildly searching for something to prove some obscure point that has little actual relevance to the subject under discussion.
I think you've missed the point about preserving cultural diversity. But, yes, no doubt, one day, we'll all eat at 'Mickey D's' and wear Wal-Mart underwear, whilst we are showered with Born Again Christian trinkets and demands for 'prayer gifts,' from TBN. |
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| wembley8 Home of Legends Joined: 24 Jan 2003 Total posts: 2001 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 19-07-2008 20:20 Post subject: |
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| Pietro_Mercurios wrote: | | I think you've missed the point about preserving cultural diversity. |
Really - I thought this was about the cultural development of indigenous Latin American cultures in the face of outside influence. And Bolivia is as good an example as anywhere.
What's your take on it?
| Pietro_Mercurios wrote: | | But, yes, no doubt, one day, we'll all eat at 'Mickey D's' and wear Wal-Mart underwear, whilst we are showered with Born Again Christian trinkets and demands for 'prayer gifts,' from TBN. |
Does that piece of sarcasm mean you think one culture might actually be superior to another? |
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| BuckeyeJones Dichotomous Joined: 03 May 2004 Total posts: 412 Location: On a sea of kerosene in a match stick boat Gender: Male |
| Posted: 20-07-2008 06:58 Post subject: |
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Greetings,
| Quote: | Pietro_Mercurios wrote:
But, yes, no doubt, one day, we'll all eat at 'Mickey D's' and wear Wal-Mart underwear, whilst we are showered with Born Again Christian trinkets and demands for 'prayer gifts,' from TBN.
wembley8 wrote:
Does that piece of sarcasm mean you think one culture might actually be superior to another? |
I think that all the things that PM said there were on the negative side of our modern culture.
The more I think about it the more I wonder if I might not be a happier person if I led a simple life.
Europeans and Americans have such a great success record in helping out cultures towards a brighter future.
The history of North America is rife with tales of old world benevolence towards the natives.
.
Here is my short take on the big three.
The Spanish
Total conquest of all they encountered, and infiltration into the native peoples.
The English
Force, politics and germ warfare.
The French
Force, politics, germ warfare and infiltration into the native peoples.
Then the bastard son of all three.
The United States of America
Guilty of all of the charges above.
....and all of them used religion as a tool.
We all share many things we brought to people that were in no way prepared for what we had.
As was posted, they know about us and they say no.
Quake42 wrote:
| Quote: | 'm a little surprised this one is still rumbling on.
TBH the fact that the tribe were not, in fact, "undiscovered" makes the "leave them alone" argument all the stronger.
We are aware of them, they are aware of us. Despite this, they have chosen to remain isolated for almost a century and are hostile when approached. I'm not sure what more evidence is needed - they're not interested, so leave them be! |
Does not that make the point moot as far as the thread?
PEACE!
Buck |
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| ramonmercado Psycho Punk
Joined: 19 Aug 2003 Total posts: 17938 Location: Dublin Gender: Male |
| Posted: 08-10-2008 13:39 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | "Uncontacted" Tribes Fled Peru Logging, Arrows Suggest
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/pf/78265664.html
Sabrina Valle in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
for National Geographic News
October 6, 2008
Arrows and abandoned camps found in remote western Brazil are fresh evidence of isolated Amazon tribes fleeing Peru to escape the encroachment of illegal loggers, indigenous rights groups say.
London-based Survival International said the arrows were recovered by Brazilian authorities near a site where photos were taken earlier this year of tribal people apparently shooting arrows at the photographer's airplane.
The tribes have been described as "uncontacted"—so remote that they may have had little or no substantive contact with the developed world. (See video.)
Peruvian President Alan Garcia suggested last year that such indigenous groups might be an invention by those who were opposed to oil exploration.
Conservationists, scholars, and Brazilian government agencies that do recognize the isolated tribes have struggled to determine how best to protect them, an effort that has spurred calls for Peru to stop the illegal logging and development that is displacing the indigenous people.
(Related: "Photos Spur Debate on Protecting "Uncontacted" Tribes" [June 3, 2008].)
A Different Kind of Arrow
"There is plenty of evidence for the tribes fleeing and that logging is taking place on the Peruvian side," said David Hill of Survival International.
Logs cut down illegally in Peru have been reported floating downriver to Brazil, and abandoned Indian huts have been found between areas of deforestation.
Brazil's Indian-protection agency, FUNAI, has found traces of fires and footprints at campsites on its side of the border with Peru, as well as newly built houses and the arrows three miles (five kilometers) from the border.
"These houses cannot have been built by anyone else, and the arrows they are using differ from the ones used by 'uncontacted' groups permanently on the Brazilian side of the border," Hill said.
"FUNAI officials have monitored the area for years. They know the lay of the land—who is who, where they are," he said.
Reports of "Contact"
Reports from less isolated tribes who have met the "uncontacted" groups also attest to the dislocation.
Beatriz Huertas, a top official with CIPIACI, an international committee comprised of indigenous organizations from six South American countries, was among a small group of specialists that spent nearly three weeks in the area researching and documenting the displacement.
"We haven't made direct contact, since we have to respect them and take care not to spread diseases they are not protected from, but we've flown over the area and spoken to other tribes from the region who have had first-hand contact," Huertas said.
"There is no doubt," she continued. "It is proven that they are fleeing."
Huertas said the "uncontacted" tribes affected by the illegal logging activities are probably from the Peruvian region of Ucayali, which borders the Brazilian state of Acre.
She said the indigenous people are believed to be either Pano speakers or else from the Mashco Piro ethnic group, whose language derives from Arawak.
Sydney Possuelo, who was responsible for implementing Brazil's policies protecting Indians in the late 1980s, stressed that such details of the "uncontacted" tribes are not known for certain.
"We know the location of some, and there are reserves to protect them. But everything about their language, culture, and habits has to be treated as supposition," he said.
Infighting and Inaction
The Brazilian government has confirmed the existence of 40 such tribes, and there are estimates that the number could be as high as 67. Another 15 live in Peru, according to Survival International.
Huertas said logging pressure has also caused other problems for the Indians. Tribes that used to live far from each other are being pushed closer together, forcing them to fight among themselves for food and territory.
"There have been attacks, fires, and killings by loggers. The area available to the tribes has shrunk. Now they have to compete for food and space," Huertas said.
While there are problems in the Brazilian side, Indians are more protected by the government than they are in Peru.
No report has been published and no action has been taken since the Peruvian government promised earlier this year to investigate the logging problem, Hill said.
"Either because [Peru] does not have the political will, or because it does not want to allocate the necessary resources to tackle the problem, these 'uncontacted' tribes' lands are being invaded and devastated," he said. |
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| goth13girl666 Great Old One Joined: 05 May 2008 Total posts: 438 Location: doncaster Age: 28 Gender: Female |
| Posted: 09-10-2008 13:10 Post subject: |
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if the article posted by ramonmercado is not proof enough that because of the loggers tribes are being forced together and this making them fight i mean come on thats not right  |
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| ramonmercado Psycho Punk
Joined: 19 Aug 2003 Total posts: 17938 Location: Dublin Gender: Male |
| Posted: 10-12-2009 19:13 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Last survivor of Amazon tribe attacked
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2009/1210/1224260425672.html
RORY CARROLL
GUNMEN, BELIEVED to be ranchers, have launched an attack on the last survivor of an uncontacted Amazon tribe in a remote part of Brazil’s rainforest.
The tribesman, known as the “man of the hole” because of the pits he digs for trapping animals and because he stays in hiding, is believed to have survived.
The incident took place last month in Tanaru, an indigenous territory in the Amazon state of Rondonia, but the news has just emerged, said the UK advocacy group Survival International. Ranchers who oppose government efforts to protect the man’s land were the likeliest perpetrators, said group director Stephen Corry.
“His tribe has been massacred and now the ‘man of the hole’ faces the same fate. The ranchers must allow this man to live out his last days in peace on his own land, and the authorities must do all they can to protect it,” he said.
Officials from Funai, Brazil’s Indian affairs department, discovered its protection post was ransacked and found empty shotgun cartridges nearby. “This is a serious situation. The Indian’s life is being put in danger by the interests of the ranchers,” said Altair Algayer, a Funai official.
Police have investigated the incident but nobody has been charged. Funai believes the man survived the attack.
The man’s age and name is unknown, but he is believed to be the sole survivor of a tribe massacred by ranchers in the 1970s and 1980s. He traps animals by digging holes lined with spikes and, in the centre of his hut, he has dug a hole in which he hides when outsiders approach. |
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| ramonmercado Psycho Punk
Joined: 19 Aug 2003 Total posts: 17938 Location: Dublin Gender: Male |
| Posted: 03-08-2010 12:27 Post subject: |
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Not quite untouched, under attack from loggers.
| Quote: | Amazon tribe emerges from forest to prove existence and demand security
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2010/0803/1224276087572.html
TOM HENNIGAN in São Paulo
Tue, Aug 03, 2010
MEMBERS OF a tiny indigenous tribe emerged on Sunday from the Amazon rainforest, many for the first time, to prove their existence and demand greater protection for their lands.
The protest by 55 Awá and another 150 supporters is taking place in the town of Zé Doca in the eastern Amazonian state of Maranhão after the local mayor’s office had denied their existence.
Local authorities oppose a ruling by a federal judge that loggers, ranchers and other settlers from around Zé Doca who have invaded traditional Awá lands should leave.
The ruling in June last year gave squatters 180 days to evacuate demarcated Awá territory in what was seen as a major victory for the tribe. However, legal objections saw the ruling suspended; it is still to be enforced with satellite images showing that settlers have stepped up forest clearing and road building.
Tribe members left the forest on Sunday to stage their two-day protest which they have titled: “ We Exist: Land and Life for the Hunter-Gatherer Awá ”.
In a telephone interview, Awá leader Mama said those who denied their existence only did so in order to seize their lands.
“Those who say we do not exist do so because they want to end with this land. We are here to show that we do exist and want to secure our lands. We are ready to talk but they must leave. This is not their territory.”
Indigenous rights groups working with the Awá say squatters on the tribe’s land are using the delay in implementing the judge’s ruling to clear more of the forest.
“About 50 per cent of their forest has already been cleared. The longer the delay in enforcing the ruling, the more time there is to destroy more of it,” says Madalena Borges of CIMI, a Catholic church-linked organisation that fights for indigenous rights.
Ms Borges said the mayor’s office, which has appealed the judge’s ruling, has so far not responded to an invitation to sit and talk with the Awá protesters.
According to FUNAI, the Brazilian government’s indigenous affairs agency, the Awá, with about 300 members, are one of only two nomadic hunter-gatherer tribes left in Brazil. Although most Awá now live in communities in touch with the outside world, a FUNAI expedition earlier this year confirmed the existence of a group of about 60 Awá who have had no contact.
The Awá’s lands first came under threat in the 1970s when Brazil undertook the Great Carajás programme to develop iron ore mines in the eastern Amazon with funding from the World Bank, Japan and the European Union. As part of the project a railway linking the world’s largest iron ore mine with the coast was built on Awá lands.
A condition of World Bank support was that indigenous land in the region be demarcated and protected. However delays in the demarcation process dragged on for years while the Carajás project continued. The roads and railways built to ship out the region’s mineral wealth led to an invasion of Awá lands by loggers and other settlers.
As well as seeing swathes of their forest home cut down, the Awá were also the targets of massacres by settlers as well as being victims of illnesses such as the ordinary flu to which they had little immunity.
“The picture is one of a people whose traditional territory has become completely fragmented and who have to seek refuge in the pieces of forest that have survived,” says Fiona Watson of Survival International, a campaign group that fights for indigenous rights. “The problem is the level of violence that comes with deforestation.”
Survival has documented one Awá massacre survivor who, after his family was attacked by ranchers, wandered alone in the forest for 12 years avoiding contact with white people before finally emerging more than 650 kilometres away from the tribe’s lands. |
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