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Deepcut Serial Sentry Slotter
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Anonymous
PostPosted: 20-09-2003 18:22    Post subject: Reply with quote

It has to be someone who's off his nut. It could involve drugs...
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McAvennie_Offline
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PostPosted: 20-09-2003 18:34    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it was drug related then *dreadful social judgement impending* I'd be inclined to think it was a lower level guy, a regular soldier/squaddie.
In which case I doubt there would be that many people willing to cover it up. Could be the higher-ups covering their drug shame?
A high-up blackmailed by a lowly dealing squaddie, turns to murder and then has to keep killing to keep more and more people silent.
This is just speculation of course.

Which reminds me of a great eye-Raq soundbite. A yankee officer being interviewed after the killing of Uday/Qusay...

REPORTER: Sir, would it not have been wiser to surround the building and wait until Qusay and Uday had run out of bullets, or surrendered, thus allowing them to be tried for their crimes, rather than bombard the building and kill them.
US OFFICER: That's purely speculation. Next question.

LOL, great answer!
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CavynautOffline
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PostPosted: 20-09-2003 20:49    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of what I've read of this case has reinforced my opinion that the armed forces consider themselves above the law of the land and would prefer to sort out what ever is going on 'in house'. There is a definite cover up of sorts going on here. Are the deaths at Catterick part of the same mindset? 'You joined up, now stop moaning'?
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Anonymous
PostPosted: 20-09-2003 22:21    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cavynaut wrote:

Most of what I've read of this case has reinforced my opinion that the armed forces consider themselves above the law of the land and would prefer to sort out what ever is going on 'in house'. There is a definite cover up of sorts going on here. Are the deaths at Catterick part of the same mindset? 'You joined up, now stop moaning'?


The Armed Forces do have their own laws, that's why they like to sort things out themselves. That's what the RMP are for. roll eyes (sarcastic) In this case the civvy police are required, because it's a possible murder, but I can understand the unwillingness to let any old bloody civilians get involved, with their stupid little preconcieved ideas about the Armed Forces...
It's not a 'cover up' as such, it's just that the other NCOs (or whoever, but I have my theory) maybe too afraid to speak up or may be in on it. 'Cover up' suggests it's planned from the top down, which is hardly the case here. The officer commanding the base should be replaced and the NCOs should be dispersed. I'll bet money that the bottom of this thing lies in the Sergeants' Mess.


Last edited by Guest on 20-09-2003 22:32; edited 1 time in total
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CavynautOffline
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PostPosted: 21-09-2003 00:05    Post subject: Reply with quote

Inverurie Jones wrote:

The Armed Forces do have their own laws, that's why they like to sort things out themselves. That's what the RMP are for. roll eyes (sarcastic) In this case the civvy police are required, because it's a possible murder, but I can understand the unwillingness to let any old bloody civilians get involved,


But that's exactly my point. Is it right that Mr and Mrs Civilian can send off son/daughter to get killed by a psycho in uniform and then get fobbed off when they ask for an explanation? 'Cos that's what seems to be happening here.

It's all utter b/s IJ, the armed forces should not be able to get away with this by hiding behind whatever privilege they may or may not have. If it's murder, then it's murder and the full weight of the law should fall upon those who are guilty of the act or the cover up.

A girl who I worked with a while ago has joined the Royal Logistics Corps, and I know how upset I would be to hear that she had become a victim of whatever is going on at Deepcut.

Mad
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Dennis_De_BacleOffline
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PostPosted: 21-09-2003 00:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

Inverurie Jones wrote:

...The officer commanding the base should be replaced and the NCOs should be dispersed. I'll bet money that the bottom of this thing lies in the Sergeants' Mess.
No, those who should have known what was happening under their command should be fired for incompetence and the NCOs should stand trial.
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CavynautOffline
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PostPosted: 21-09-2003 00:28    Post subject: Reply with quote

*thumbs up* to Caroline.
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Anonymous
PostPosted: 21-09-2003 11:15    Post subject: Reply with quote

Caroline wrote:

No, those who should have known what was happening under their command should be fired for incompetence and the NCOs should stand trial.


They have to find out which ones are responsible first. That's whats going to be difficult.
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Anonymous
PostPosted: 22-09-2003 12:40    Post subject: Reply with quote

True.

There's an 'us against them' mentality at work here.
It's similar to the problems involved in dealing with police corruption: no-one's willing to break ranks and grass up a possibly long time colleague.

My money's on a nutter NCO, with possibly some of his mates complicit in the cover-up.

Oh, and a court martial for their officers. They're supposed to make sure this sort of thing doesn't happen, not hide their heads in the sand and hope it'll go away.
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PostPosted: 22-09-2003 13:40    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally do not think a lone Nutter could have done it. I have heard that in the last decade or so the training units in the British army are having alot of problems with drugs including Dealers within the ranks. I would not be at all suprised if these murders are related to drugs in some shape or form.
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Anonymous
PostPosted: 22-09-2003 13:46    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the things I heard relate to a group of NCOs led by one particular sergeant. It would not surprise me at all if their intimidation and bullying of recruits was done to ensure their silence about illegal activities. They won't go to anyone about this because that would drag up their own activities (drug use?) and lead to their being dropped in it themselves. If it's a cover up, it's going in the opposite direction from the norm; from the bottom up.
None of these people has the Army's interests in mind, or anyone else's but their own. They won't give evidence to either military or civil authorities, because they'll lose everything. If they won't talk, there is no evidence and there is nothing anyone can do.
That's my theory, anyway.


Last edited by Guest on 22-09-2003 13:53; edited 1 time in total
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min_bannister
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PostPosted: 24-09-2003 13:35    Post subject: Reply with quote

xeno wrote:

I personally do not think a lone Nutter could have done it. I have heard that in the last decade or so the training units in the British army are having alot of problems with drugs including Dealers within the ranks. I would not be at all suprised if these murders are related to drugs in some shape or form.


I don't think it is a lone person either. I am ex-army and I knew before I joined (a few years ago) that there was no way in hell I would ever join the logistics corps. Any bad story I ever read in the papers be it bullying/rape etc it was always the Logistics corps. As soon as someone gets a banana on their sleeve, they turn into a control freak. The fact that there is a constant turnover of people would only perpetuate something that probably started decades ago. "This is how we do things here" "Oh okay then" and so it goes on.

If this was a lone person, then there would have been a proper investigation when the bodies were found, why wouldn't there have been?
Would YOU like the world to think the people YOU were in charge of were commiting suicide when they weren't?

There is something extremely rotten there and it is going to be very difficult, if not impossible to find out what happened.
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Anonymous
PostPosted: 25-09-2003 12:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

off topic slightly but i've only just seen this thread. it must be one of the best titles on here. congrats Inverurie Very Happy

you shoud be a sub-editor!!!
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Anonymous
PostPosted: 29-09-2003 15:07    Post subject: a really paranoid theory... Deepcut and Dr Kelly Reply with quote

With the parallels between the dodgy "suicides" of 4 young army recruits at Deepcut barracks and the dodgy "suicide" of Dr Kelly over Iraq, a really paranoid conspiracy theory popped into my brain...

The perfect murder, if you wish to get rid of someone who has too-sensitive information, would be to go beyond making it look like suicide and make it actually be suicide. If the secret services really wanted to untraceably kill someone, a (truly sadistic) way to do so (and probably one that only a really paranoid mind could think up) would be to (perhaps by psychological manipulation, hypnosis etc) deliberately drive that person to commit suicide.

I am sure that has been done, in cruder and less directed ways, ie. "breaking a man's spirit"... but if there was deliberate research into the fastest and most efficient way to screw with someone's head into a suicidal state, and high-level psychiatrists, hypnotists etc were working with the spooks on such an intention, it could easily be possible to cause a man like Dr Kelly, who had no previously suicidal intentions, to kill himself suddenly and unexpectedly, but obviously with no evidence that it was something more than a "genuine" suicide... because it was a genuine suicide, just one deliberately brought about by intensive psychological manipulation.

It might not even legally (if ever found out) be punishable as murder.

Of course, before something so out-there could be tried on Dr Kelly, or anyone else high up, there would have to be practice... and who better to practice on than young, zealous, vulnerable and hidden-away from the public eye army recruits? Perhaps this was the true nature of Deepcut's "training ground"...

It's certainly possible to manipulate someone's mind to make them want to commit suicide, if over a somewhat longer term... look at Hamas, al-Quaida, Japanese kamikaze pilots etc... this is just something i randomly cooked up in my head, to see how plausible any "conspiracy experts" out there would think it might be, rather than something i am actually suggesting happened... but certainly something to think about...
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Anonymous
PostPosted: 29-09-2003 15:27    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah but the kicker is the Deep Cut deaths weren't actually suicides.

As an aside, what was the reason for the prolonged use of the phrase "alleged suicide" when Dr Kelly's death was mentioned in the press. Was there suspicious circumstances (apart from the his dying just before he was about to cause huge embarrassment to the government, obviously) that delayed the inquest? Are there questions that couldn't/wouldn't be asked? Were police considering it murder at some point?
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