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More "Political Correctness gone mad"
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mr_micawberOffline
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PostPosted: 08-11-2005 13:02    Post subject: More "Political Correctness gone mad" Reply with quote

Hi Folks

I enjoyed reading the recent "Looney Left" thread. I think there are two very common "Political Correctness gone mad" myths. At least I think they are myths. I would be interested to hear if anyone can provide concrete examples of either of them. It needs to have happened to you not your mates/relatives!

(i) Somebody being banned from flying a Union Jack.

So many people seem to think that this is illegal. You often here 3rd hand tales of people being asked to take them down when a nearby flag of another nation (usually Ireland,Pakistan or India) is completely ignored. During the football tournaments people often refer to the fact that they would like to fly England flags but think they are not allowed to. I have yet to come across anyone who has themselves been made to take one down. Not only that I can find several houses in my neighbourhood that have Union Jacks hanging off them without any bother.

Now recently we had a story in England where prison wardens were told not to wear Union Jack tie pins which they were apparently wearing in support of a cancer charity.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/4305798.stm
This prompted much "PC gone mad" angst and it does seem rather silly.
However contrary to popular opinion the wardens were not "banned" from wearing them they were "advised" not to wear them. Most "flag ban" stories are like this, its usually a request to remove the flag which the flag flyer presumably ignores!



(ii) Competitive sports being banned in Schools.

When England won the ashes this year Tony Blair was quick to jump on the bandwagon and invite the winning team to number 10. The Daily Mail was equally quick to castigate him for this saying something along the lines of "Its rich for him to try to take the credit for this when Labour councils have harmed grassroots cricket by banning it and other competitive sports in schools".

Does anyone know a school where football or cricket are outlawed in favour of "co operative team building excersises". I have yet to find one myself. At my littles nursery there are sports and competions right from the youngest ages.
(And he sings baa baa black sheep at nursey another pc urban myth shot down)

Despite all this wait till the next time England/Great Britain perfrom worse than expected at some sporting event. The mailbags of the newspapers will be full of letters lambasting teachers for removing competitive sports from schools.

I think it might be something to do with the "Modern Parents" in viz. They made their children play "shareball". Where there is one team and you hug the ball before passing it to someone else. I think this struck a chord with so many people that they began to think it was true. Often Urban Myths start of as jokes. According to snopes.com many people think Dick Van Dykes real name is Penis Van Lesbian!!

Paul
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Black River FallsOffline
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PostPosted: 08-11-2005 13:31    Post subject: Reply with quote

At a slight tangent, does anyone know if it's actually true that in the US you're not allowed to fly any other flag higher than the US flag? I'm sure I read somewhere once about someone who tried to fly a union jack and was told they could only do so if they flew the US flag above it?
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min_bannister
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PostPosted: 08-11-2005 14:05    Post subject: Reply with quote

This site reckons the Union flag IS illegal as is the Lion Rampant.

http://www.standrewsdayrally.com/saltire.html

Quote:
Use of the Saltire and Union Flag:

It is the case that it is NOT permissible for the ordinary citizen of the UK - either Scottish, English, Welsh or Irish - to fly the Union Flag. It is only permissible for Government offices, Royal Navy ships on their foretop and certain other military uses (and recently certain royal dwellings in the absence of the monarch). It is the flag of the Union only. The common citizens should be flying their own national flags - the crosses of St George, St Andrew, St Patrick and of Cornwall and the dragon of Wales, unless they are on board ship when these flags may be flown on the foretop but the red ensign is mandatory. Scots should not even be flying the lion rampant which is the sign reserved to the monarch of Scotland. The question is as to what flag should fly in front of the Parliament of Scotland, the Assembly of Wales and the Northern Ireland Assembly and over the buildings housing the official administrations of these. This should be a matter for each body to chose for itself.

Though in Scotland government buildings are supposed to fly the Union flag over the Saltire, even in the Scottish parliament except on St Andrews day.

Some Saltire shennanigans
HERE and HERE

However this site reckons its only illegal for civilian ships to fly it!
http://www.scotshistoryonline.co.uk/saltire/saltire.html
(ps it is worth opening this URL just to see the "Scottish" version of the Union flag!

Quote:
Whilst the Union Flag has never been officially adopted by law as the national flag of the UK, it has become so by usage (which can count for a lot in the British constitutional/legal system) and the government has stated it is the correct flag for use by British citizens.

Afloat though, the Union Flag has been reserved by the government for specific, military purposes. It is the jack of the Royal Navy and the flag of rank for an admiral of the fleet. These are the reasons why it is illegal for a civilian ship to fly it.
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Quake42Offline
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PostPosted: 08-11-2005 14:30    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't this just saying it is illegal for ordinary citizens to fly the Union flag from a ship rather than on land? confused
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ramonmercadoOffline
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PostPosted: 08-11-2005 14:46    Post subject: Reply with quote

The British Merchant Navy is a red flag with a small Union Jack in the top corner. Hmmm maybe that could become the new British flag when (if)Gordon Brown takes over.
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min_bannister
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PostPosted: 08-11-2005 14:47    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quake42 wrote:
Isn't this just saying it is illegal for ordinary citizens to fly the Union flag from a ship rather than on land? confused

Yes.
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Tyger_LilyOffline
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PostPosted: 08-11-2005 16:27    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlackRiverFalls wrote:
At a slight tangent, does anyone know if it's actually true that in the US you're not allowed to fly any other flag higher than the US flag? I'm sure I read somewhere once about someone who tried to fly a union jack and was told they could only do so if they flew the US flag above it?


That's quite true. Apart from the Texas Lone Star, which is allowed to be flown at the same height.
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ogopogo3Offline
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PostPosted: 09-11-2005 00:29    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tyger_Lily wrote:
BlackRiverFalls wrote:
At a slight tangent, does anyone know if it's actually true that in the US you're not allowed to fly any other flag higher than the US flag? I'm sure I read somewhere once about someone who tried to fly a union jack and was told they could only do so if they flew the US flag above it?


That's quite true. Apart from the Texas Lone Star, which is allowed to be flown at the same height.


Wrong! http://www.snopes.com/history/american/texasflag.asp
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mr_micawberOffline
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PostPosted: 09-11-2005 11:43    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well in true Fortean style you post a message and news on that subject appears immediatley. The legality of flags was debated in the house of Lords yesterday. Basically the situation is this it is illegal to fly a non national flag (for example the Skull and Crossbones) without planning permission. This means that the Union Flag is perfectly legal. The reason this crops up is that the EU flag is thus illegal.

Now in case there are hundereds of you out there wishing to fly it but feel unable to the house of lords gave the EU flag special exemption, so there you are you can fly union flag and the EU one!

http://www.independenceuk.org.uk/abc_news/gen12.php?t=1&id=1679

It leaves me wondering about the St George flag (and the flags of Scotland,Wales and Northern Ireland). Given that England,Scotland,Wales and Northern Ireland aren't officially nations does that mean that it is actually illegal to fly their flags?

Paul
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zygmunt_rocks_onOffline
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PostPosted: 09-11-2005 13:25    Post subject: Reply with quote

A farmer in Helmsley got into trouble for flying the Yorkshire flag on his land.

http://archive.thisisthenortheast.co.uk/2003/12/18/67538.html

I don't know why they picked on him... the flag is flown all over the place in Yorkshire, particularly the 'deep North'.

I've got one in my garden here in London and I was waving it when we went to Last Night Of The Proms!
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liveinabin1Offline
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PostPosted: 09-11-2005 14:40    Post subject: Reply with quote

ramonmercado wrote:
The British Merchant Navy is a red flag with a small Union Jack in the top corner. Hmmm maybe that could become the new British flag when (if)Gordon Brown takes over.


That is the Union Jack. The cross of St George with the small union flag in the corner or red flag with Union Flag in the corner is callled the Union Jack. The 'full size' version is called the Union Flag.
I think.....(waits for someone to prove me wrong)
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ramonmercadoOffline
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PostPosted: 09-11-2005 14:52    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The cross of St George with the small union flag in the corner or red flag with Union Flag in the corner is callled the Union Jack.


The one I'm referring to doesnt have a cross of St George, the background is completely red.
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zygmunt_rocks_onOffline
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PostPosted: 09-11-2005 15:32    Post subject: Reply with quote

the British Merchant Navy's flag is the Red Ensign, nicknamed the 'Red Duster'.
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rynner
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PostPosted: 09-11-2005 18:00    Post subject: Reply with quote

zygmunt_rocks_on wrote:
the British Merchant Navy's flag is the Red Ensign, nicknamed the 'Red Duster'.


Yes, a red flag with the union flag in the upper corner next to the hoist. Used by all British vessels, including yachts, pleasure boats, etc.

The Royal Navy's flag is the White Ensign, a white flag with red cross of St George, and the union flag in the corner.

(There is also a blue ensign, used by naval auxiliary vessels, and members of certain recognised yacht clubs.)

So I'm afraid Liveinabin is somewhat confused on this matter!
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liveinabin1Offline
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PostPosted: 10-11-2005 09:17    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's quite likely that I am. What I thought was that the ones flown on ships were called Union Jacks and that the ones flown on land were called Union Flags.
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