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| Pietro_Mercurios Heuristically Challenged
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| Pietro_Mercurios Heuristically Challenged
Gender: Unknown |
 Posted: 19-08-2013 13:47 Post subject: |
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| Quake42 wrote: | | Quote: | | Self reckons that when the police later stopped them, they kept them at the side of the road and questioned them for about half an hour. So yes, ultimately, should we believe Will Self, or the jobsworth renta-cop? |
Well you've clearly already made up your mind, as your use of the phrase "jobsworth renta-cop" makes clear. An equally valid counter argument might be something like:
"The security guard reckons that the young boy appeared exhausted and his father had no idea where they were or how to get to their destination which was many miles away. So yes, ultimately, should we believe the self-important media luvvie or the minimum wage worker concerned about a child's welfare?"
And the answer is, of course, that we don't know. Self has one version of events, the security guard another very different one. I wouldn't automatically believe the well-connected wealthy media commentator over the poor sap doing a badly paid job. He may be a jobsworth or he may have been genuinely worried about the welfare of a child. The media is quick to excoriate those who do not report such concerns when those concerns turn out to be well-founded.
Either way, not a police state as far as I can tell. |
We only know about this incident, because Will Self is a 'well-connected wealthy media commentator', with his own column in the Mail on Sunday. Is this just the tip of the iceberg?
Last edited by Pietro_Mercurios on 19-08-2013 13:48; edited 1 time in total |
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Quake42 Warrior Princess
Great Old One Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Total posts: 5310 Location: Over Silbury Hill, through the Solar field Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 19-08-2013 13:48 Post subject: |
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| I don't think it does, really. If the security guard was genuinely concerned for the child's welfare - and there is no reason to suggest this was not the case - he did the right thing. |
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| Pietro_Mercurios Heuristically Challenged
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| Posted: 19-08-2013 13:52 Post subject: |
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| Quake42 wrote: | | I don't think it does, really. If the security guard was genuinely concerned for the child's welfare - and there is no reason to suggest this was not the case - he did the right thing. |
Or, the security guard lied. It's pretty clear that either Self or the security guard is not being entirely honest. If the security guard was being less than honest, might he also have been abusing his authority? |
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| Quake42 Warrior Princess
Great Old One Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Total posts: 5310 Location: Over Silbury Hill, through the Solar field Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 19-08-2013 14:10 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Or, the security guard lied. It's pretty clear that either Self or the security guard is not being entirely honest. If the security guard was being less than honest, might he also have been abusing his authority? |
He may well have been. We don't know. What I object to is the assumption that the wealthy, well-connected media figure must automatically be the truthful one.
See also Oprah's rant (since withdrawn) a couple of weeks ago about a "racist" shop assistant in Switzerland. Media types can get very antsty when ordinary mortals fail to recognise them and/or treat them with the respect they think is owing to them. |
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| Pietro_Mercurios Heuristically Challenged
Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 19-08-2013 14:28 Post subject: |
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| Quake42 wrote: | ...
See also Oprah's rant (since withdrawn) a couple of weeks ago about a "racist" shop assistant in Switzerland. Media types can get very antsty when ordinary mortals fail to recognise them and/or treat them with the respect they think is owing to them. |
On a side note, Winfrey did not 'withdraw' her allegation of racism. She did apologize for causing a fuss.
| Quote: | http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/08/13/oprah-apologizes-for-swiss-racism-comments-that-sparked-uproar/
Oprah apologizes for Swiss racism comments that sparked uproar
tv.msnbc.comMorgan Whitaker, @morganwinn. 08/13/2013
Days after revealing she had been dismissed by a Swiss store clerk while trying to buy a high-end bag, Oprah Winfrey says she’s “sorry” for the media uproar she’s created with her original comments.
“I think that incident in Switzerland was just an incident in Switzerland. I’m really sorry that it got blown up. I purposefully did not mention the name of the store. I’m sorry that I said it was Switzerland,” Winfrey said to the Associated Press Monday.
In an interview with Entertainment Tonight last week, Winfrey shared a story about visiting a fancy boutique on a trip to Zurich, only to find the clerk refused the multi-millionaire a chance to view the $38,000 purse she assumed Winfrey could not afford.
“I was just referencing it as an example of being in a place where people don’t expect that you would be able to be there,” Winfrey said. “For me, racism doesn’t show up. No one’s going to call me the n-word to my face unless they’re a thug on Twitter or Facebook.”
“I was just saying it shows up for me differently. It shows up. I’m in a store and the person obviously doesn’t know that I carry the black card and so they make an assessment based upon the way I look and who I am,” she added.
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She was not saying that the incident didn't happen.
I don't think we should simply disregard what celebrities have to say, just because their very celebrity can occasionally magnify a minor situation of petty jobsworthery to public proportions. |
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JamesWhitehead Piffle Prospector Joined: 02 Aug 2001 Total posts: 5779 Location: Manchester, UK Gender: Male |
| Posted: 19-08-2013 14:35 Post subject: |
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From the Guardian piece: "The writer said the officer had already recognised him from the BBC comedy Shooting Stars . . . "
Lucky he wasn't armed then.  |
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| Pietro_Mercurios Heuristically Challenged
Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 19-08-2013 14:37 Post subject: |
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| JamesWhitehead wrote: | From the Guardian piece: "The writer said the officer had already recognised him from the BBC comedy Shooting Stars . . . "
Lucky he wasn't armed then. |
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| Quake42 Warrior Princess
Great Old One Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Total posts: 5310 Location: Over Silbury Hill, through the Solar field Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 19-08-2013 14:44 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I’m in a store and the person obviously doesn’t know that I carry the black card and so they make an assessment based upon the way I look and who I am |
In other words: how dare you not know who I am! I am a billionaire! HOW VERY DARE YOU!
| Quote: | | I don't think we should simply disregard what celebrities have to say, just because their very celebrity can occasionally magnify a minor situation of petty jobsworthery to public proportions. |
I agree, but neither should we believe everything they say without question and assume that the ordinary joe or jane on the other end of the displeasure is in the wrong.
In the case of Oprah, well, I doubt that a shop assistant would simply hand you or me a $38,000 handbag to look at either. It's not racist. It's taking precautions with very expensive stock.
In the case of Will Self, something about the situation worried the security guard enough to call the police. Maybe Self was rude and aggressive to him because he wouldn't allow him to take a short cut through the property he was being paid to guard (ie, he was doing his job). Maybe the child was tired and tearful. Who knows, but I think the balance of probabilities would suggest a genuine concern of some sort.
The same media outlets that are screaming "jobsworth" at this hapless security guard were shouting "shame" at the passersby who failed to intervene when James Bulger was being led to his death. It's hard to know exactly what people are expected to do when they have concerns about a child's welfare. |
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| Pietro_Mercurios Heuristically Challenged
Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 19-08-2013 14:51 Post subject: |
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| Quake42 wrote: | | Quote: | | I’m in a store and the person obviously doesn’t know that I carry the black card and so they make an assessment based upon the way I look and who I am |
In other words: how dare you not know who I am! I am a billionaire! HOW VERY DARE YOU!
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Did she say that? Or, can you read people's thoughts? |
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| Cochise Great Old One Joined: 17 Jun 2011 Total posts: 1104 Location: Gwynedd, Wales Age: 58 Gender: Male |
| Posted: 19-08-2013 15:03 Post subject: |
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| The way I read the article, Self was not complaining about the police follow-up particularly (the impression was skewed by the headline, I grant you) as about what he saw as the paranoid behaviour of the security guard. I think he accepted that having had the call the police had to follow up. |
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| Pietro_Mercurios Heuristically Challenged
Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 19-08-2013 15:24 Post subject: |
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| Cochise wrote: | | The way I read the article, Self was not complaining about the police follow-up particularly (the impression was skewed by the headline, I grant you) as about what he saw as the paranoid behaviour of the security guard. I think he accepted that having had the call the police had to follow up. |
True enough. But, with the increase in the use of private security firms in the UK, I still think it's worth a mention on this thread.
http://www.publicservice.co.uk/feature_story.asp?id=19913
Always worth taking note of possible indications of a change in the weather, however slight. Never know when a few spots of rain might turn into a downpour. |
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| Brimir Yeti Joined: 02 Mar 2013 Total posts: 69 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 19-08-2013 18:25 Post subject: |
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| I was watching the BBC news, just, and it showed the fracking protests in Sussex. Surely how the police handled the protesters can't be legal. There was a lad linked arms with the other protesters, and they were pushing, with some force into a pressure point, that's kind a bit lower down and slightly behind the ear, where there's a gap in the muscle. Even a little bit of pressure there, hurts, the way they were going at it would have been excruciating. |
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| Pietro_Mercurios Heuristically Challenged
Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 19-08-2013 19:57 Post subject: |
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| Pietro_Mercurios wrote: | More 'Summer madness'?
| Quote: | http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/aug/19/detention-david-miranda-keith-vaz-glenn-greenwald
David Miranda's detention at Heathrow 'extraordinary', says Keith Vaz
Senior MP to seek explanation from police after detention of Glenn Greenwald's partner under the Terrorism Act
theguardian.com, Alexandra Topping and Guardian staff. 19 August 2013
The chairman of the home affairs select committee has said he will write to police after the partner of the Guardian journalist who has written a series of stories revealing mass surveillance programmes by the US National Security Agency was held by UK authorities as he passed through London's Heathrow airport on his way home to Rio de Janeiro.
David Miranda, who lives with Glenn Greenwald, was returning from a trip to Berlin when he was stopped by officers at 8.05am and informed that he was to be questioned under schedule 7 of the Terrorism Act 2000.
He was held for almost nine hours and officials confiscated electronics equipment including his mobile phone, laptop, camera, memory sticks, DVDs and games consoles.
Keith Vaz called the detention of Miranda "extraordinary" and said he would be writing immediately to police to request information about why Miranda was held under anti-terrorism laws when there appeared to be little evidence that he was involved in terrorism.
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More on this one, from a Guardian live blog.
| Quote: | http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2013/aug/19/glenn-greenwald-partner-detained-live-reaction
White House: US was given 'heads up' before David Miranda detained
Spokesman Joshua Earnest says 'We had an indication it was likely to occur, but it's not something we requested'
theguardian.com, Andrew Sparrow and Adam Gabbatt. 19 August 2013
7.39pm BST
Summary: US given 'heads up' before Miranda detention
Here's what we know after that White House press briefing:
• The US was given a "heads up" before David Miranda, partner of the Guardian journalist Glenn Greenwald, was detained in London. White House deputy press secretary Josh Earnest confirmed on Monday that the UK alerted the US government that they would hold Miranda before he arrived at London's Heathrow airport.
• The White House said it did not give the order for Miranda to be detained, but nevertheless was kept aware of developments. "We had an indication it was likely to occur but it's not something we requested," Earnest said. Pressed on when the US was told Miranda would be held, he added: "It probably wouldn't be a heads up if they had told us about it after the detainment." Earnest said it would be "accurate" to interpret this to mean the US was told Miranda would be detained when his name appeared on the manifest.
• Earnest would not deny that the US had obtained access to Miranda's electronic material. Several items, including laptops, were seized at Heathrow. Asked by a reporter to "rule out that the US has obtained this material", Earnest said: "I'm not in a position to do that right now."
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So, apparently Authorities in the UK are only too willing to aid and assist the US, even when unprompted. |
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| Mythopoeika Boring petty conservative
Joined: 18 Sep 2001 Total posts: 9109 Location: Not far from Bedford Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 19-08-2013 20:25 Post subject: |
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| I wonder why the government don't publicly announce that Britain is now part of America. They really should come clean. |
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