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Posted: 10-11-2009 12:18 Post subject: ET and the Vatican

The Vatican joins the search for alien life
The Vatican's Pontifical Academy of Sciences is holding its first ever conference on alien life, the discovery of which would have profound implications for the Catholic Church.
By Tom Chivers
Published: 10:20AM GMT 10 Nov 2009

The Pontifical Academy of Sciences is holding a conference on astrobiology, the study of life beyond Earth, with scientists and religious leaders gathering in Rome this week.

For centuries, theologians have argued over what the existence of life elsewhere in the universe would mean for the Church: at least since Giordano Bruno, an Italian monk, was put to death by the Inquisition in 1600 for claiming that other worlds exist.

Among other things, extremely alien-looking aliens would be hard to fit with the idea that God “made man in his own image”.

Furthermore, Jesus Christ’s role as saviour would be confused: would other worlds have their own, tentacled Christ-figures, or would Earth’s Christ be universal?

However, just as the Church eventually made accommodations after Copernicus and Galileo showed that the Earth was not the centre of the universe, and when it belatedly accepted the truth of Darwin's theory of evolution, Catholic leaders say that alien life can be aligned with the Bible’s teachings.

Father Jose Funes, a Jesuit astronomer at the Vatican Observatory and one of the organisers of the conference, said: "As a multiplicity of creatures exists on Earth, so there could be other beings, also intelligent, created by God.

"This does not conflict with our faith, because we cannot put limits on the creative freedom of God."

Not everyone agrees. Paul Davies, a theoretical physicist and author of The Goldilocks Enigma, told The Washington Post that the threat to Christianity is "being downplayed" by Church leaders. He said: "I think the discovery of a second genesis would be of enormous spiritual significance.

"The real threat would come from the discovery of extraterrestrial intelligence, because if there are beings elsewhere in the universe, then Christians, they're in this horrible bind.

"They believe that God became incarnate in the form of Jesus Christ in order to save humankind, not dolphins or chimpanzees or little green men on other planets."

The Academy conference will include presentations from scientists – by no means all of them Christians – on the discovery of planets outside our solar system, the geological record of early life on Earth, how life might have started on Earth, and whether “alien” life of a different biochemistry to our own might exist here without our knowing, among many other things.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/6536400/The-Vatican-joins-the-search-for-alien-life.html

Posted: 10-11-2009 15:33 Post subject:

So what authority does a theoretical physicist have to say how other people should interpret their religious works?

Science and religion aren't the same thing and they can't be argued in the same terms. The Vatican has a legitimate interest in mediating between the two worlds for the benefit of their parishioners; it's up to those parishioners to be convinced by the official line, or not. Unless Mr. Davis is a theoretical physicist and also a Catholic, what the pope has to say on this topic isn't really a lot of his business.

Of course, scientists have limited control over which of them journalists approach for quotes, and none over which part of the interview gets cut out. He may well have said "It's not my business because I'm not Catholic, but -" A dramatic statement like "If we find alien life I'll have to give up being Catholic because -" would have been highlighted, I'm sure.

Universities should have a required course, "Talking to Journalists 101," teaching basic skills like "why to speak," "when to shut up," "how to decrease the odds of being made to look like a jerk," and so on.

Posted: 10-11-2009 18:40 Post subject:

Posted: 10-11-2009 19:57 Post subject: Re: ET and the Vatican

Posted: 10-11-2009 20:53 Post subject: Re: ET and the Vatican

Posted: 12-11-2009 09:57 Post subject:

Does Jesus save aliens?

Four hundred years after Renaissance philosopher Giordano Bruno was burnt at the stake for his belief in the "plurality of worlds" (aliens), scientists and religious leaders gathered this week at a seemingly more open-minded Vatican for a conference on astrobiology (aliens).

The meeting focussed on current science, rather than the theological quandaries thrown up by the possibilty of other life forms beyond this planet. But that hasn't stopped debate spilling over outside the conference.

Yesterday I spoke to Paul Davies, a cosmologist from Arizona State University, just after he addressed the conference. In his view, the possibility of other civilisations - potentially more intelligent than our own - puts Christians “in a real bind”. Specifically, he says that nobody's satisfactorily addressed the question of whether aliens get saved. “The Catholic church offers a very species specific brand of salvation. Noone says that Jesus came to save the dolphins and certainly not little green men,” he said.

The possibility of extraterrestrial life does not pose the same problems for Eastern religions, which tend to be less Earth-centric, or Islam, which speaks explicitly of life beyond Earth, he said.

The Vatican does not have an official position on alien life forms, but a number of its scientists have spoken out on the issue. Father Jose Funes, director of the Vatican Observatory told the Vatican newspaper, L’Osservatore Romano, that the possibility of “brother extraterrestrials” was not incompatible with Catholic theology.

William Stroeger, an astrophysicist at the Vatican Observatory Research Group and a Jesuit priest, agreed: “There might be fundamentalists for whom the two things are incompatible but mainline congregations - Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists - would not have a problem with this,” he said.

Stroeger pointed out that the Catechism introduced after the second Vatican council states that there can be no conflict between science and religion. “If there’s a contradiction it means that we haven’t understood or interpreted one of them correctly,” he said.

This may be the case, but I agree with Davies that this isn't a trivial issue for theologists. Giggle factor aside, the question of whether Jesus would save aliens goes right to the heart of Christian beliefs. If you believe that "intelligent life" equals having a soul, then you have to ask where you'd draw the line. If scientists found dolphins on a distant planet, they would be mad with excitement at having found something so smart. But what would theologians make of them?

Stroeger conceded that the discovery of intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe would pose a challenge, but said that it would not be insurmountable. “There are some difficult issues to resolve, such as whether Jesus as saviour is the one who saves everyone in the Universe or if there are other equivalent salvation events that take place elsewhere in the Universe,” he said.

I was left feeling slightly mind-boggled at how you would even begin to answer such a question.

http://timesonline.typepad.com/science/2009/11/does-jesus-save-aliens.html

Posted: 12-11-2009 16:25 Post subject:

CS Lewis addressed this issue years ago in his Space Trilogy. Assuming that the Biblical model of creation is true, there is no reason to suppose that all planets with intelligent life fell. The aliens could all be living in pre-lapsarian bliss, for all we know. In the 18th and 19th centuries, the notion that all the stars were circled by inhabitable and inhabited words, because otherwise they weren't useful and God wouldn't create useless things, was common and taught in popular astronomy books intended for a Western (and assumed Christian) audience, as part of the whole "discovering God's glory through science" paradigm. So this is a straw man and not a very well-informed one at that. I don't see the point.

The mistake is to assume that any particular interpretation of theology is the only possible one and that this or that circumstance arising in the real world and creating problems for that interpretation invalidates the whole system. An individual believer may indeed be that rigid - I've known plenty who are - but a system that fragile doesn't survive long in the wild. Christianity has survived a long time because its framework is flexible enough to incorporate all sorts of challenging data inside a willing mind.

Posted: 12-11-2009 18:36 Post subject:

Jame Blish's A Case of Conscience adresses the issue too. In that a Jesuit priest finds a planet where there never was a fall...apparently. IIRC he starts to realise that the world is the creation of the Devil to undermine Christian doctrine.

CS Lewis's Cosmic Trilogy, yes, whatever was in his pipe, I suspect it wasn't tobacco...

Posted: 12-11-2009 19:43 Post subject:

Oh, I'm positive it was tobacco! For one thing, it's a myth that we need artificial aid to bring out the bizarre imagery in our heads - there are plenty of ways to stimulate those connections in the brain - and for another, tobacco is, in its natural form, a strong narcotic. Even cigarette smokers of modern mild, adulterated tobacco will get a buzz off the stuff, and the pure leaf can have extraordinary effects. There's a good solid reason why tobacco was the native American ritual drug of choice throughout the ages, with peyote a Johnny-come-lately in the field outside of a particular region.

Hmmm...I think this thread is drifting. Should we head in for shore now or see where the current takes us?

Posted: 13-11-2009 04:28 Post subject:

And of course CS Lewis' Space Trilogy was a result of a challenge between him and JRR Tolkien, Lewis was to write a space adventure and Tolkien was to write a time travel story (never finished, but can be found in Christopher Tolkien's History of Middle Earth series).

I find it interesting that Davies thinks ET would pose problems for Christianity, but not for "Eastern Religions". Where does he think Christianity originated?

Posted: 13-11-2009 16:29 Post subject:

Posted: 26-09-2013 03:10 Post subject:

Another article the touches on Giordano Bruno: