 |
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| How do you feel about the Lib-Con Coalition? |
| Best thing since sliced bread! |
|
1% |
[ 1 ] |
| Let's just wait and see... |
|
15% |
[ 11 ] |
| We call it: 'Masters & Servants'. |
|
10% |
[ 8 ] |
| Meet the new boss: same as the old boss. |
|
28% |
[ 21 ] |
| Traitorous Yellow! |
|
10% |
[ 8 ] |
| Tory Scum |
|
32% |
[ 24 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 73 |
|
| Author |
Message |
theyithian Keeping the British end up
Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Total posts: 11704 Location: Vermilion Sands Gender: Unknown |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
| Cavynaut Skoumed!
Usually tired. Joined: 10 Apr 2003 Total posts: 1976 Location: Crouch Wailing. UK. Age: 56 Gender: Male |
 Posted: 30-05-2010 16:00 Post subject: |
 |
|
|
Re: The Laws Saga.
A warning shot across Cameron's bows by Tories opposed to the Coalition.
And it calls into question Clegg's judgement as well. I thought he'd implied that his party was 'whiter than white'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| merriman_weir Great Old One Joined: 07 May 2009 Total posts: 429 Location: Merry England Age: 45 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 30-05-2010 16:20 Post subject: |
|
|
|
Re: the thread title. Yes, you should be able to trust the government. Can you? No. As for the poll options, I don't know whether it was intentional, but it's hardly an either or.
'Let's just wait and see'. Fair enough. Let's judge them on what's been done so far. However, what's slowly coming out is pretty crappy up to now: Theresa May as Minister for Equality. Laws as Secretary to the Treasury. Iain Duncan Smith's 'kill the poor' rhetoric.
'Master and Servants'. As many have already pointed out, this government wouldn't have been out of place in the 1800s at a time when social mobility is on the decline and the gap between rich and poor is greater than it has been in a long time.
'Meet the New Boss...' One of out of touch government swaps musical chairs with another out of touch government. Everybody at the party is getting caught going back to the chocolate cake twice. Yep, no change there.
'Traitorous Yellow' Well, Dave and Nick have both said they've had a lot in common are were always speaking the same language but using different words, apparently. Something that's probably a bit of surprise for a lot of Lib Dem supporters. So yes, Vote Lib Dem and get Tory. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| theyithian Keeping the British end up
Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Total posts: 11704 Location: Vermilion Sands Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 30-05-2010 18:00 Post subject: |
|
|
|
| merriman_weir wrote: | Re: the thread title. Yes, you should be able to trust the government. Can you? No. As for the poll options, I don't know whether it was intentional, but it's hardly an either or.
|
The poll options were plucked out of the air with tongue in cheek. You may have noticed some musical quotes... The reason I often stick superfluous polls on threads is that it can prevent threads from being auto-deleted over time. I've noticed others do the same (Although I don't think we have an auto-prune set up in Mainstream News - force of habit).
Moving on:
| merriman_weir wrote: | Bringing in 'reform' when the real issue, jobs, isn't being looked at all.
|
Do you really think the government has no interest in creating jobs? They'd clearly like to (another win-win scenario), but that's a hugely difficult proposition in the current climate. We don't have funds - or the potential for borrowing - enough to inject into creating a significant number of jobs ex nihilo as it were, and so are dependent on attracting employers to the UK. You may argue that this isn't effective (although it would be quite demanding to expect results within weeks of taking office), but it's pure rhetoric to suggest the government isn't looking into jobs.
I'm no spokesman for IDS or his organisation, but increasing skills and employability is part and parcel of attracting employers. Also, the idea of the unemployed working for their own community (providing they are healthy) is a positive one. Because Brits are so jaded, it's hard to suggest such a thing without someone diving off on one, suggesting that you're calling for chain-gangs and slave labour. The potential reality: you're a bricky, great, we could use your skills helping with this or that; you can cook, great, can you help out in the school or hospital a morning or two, is a sound one. With one stone you can get people involved with those around them, and make them feel they've earned something. I hate to wax protestant, but I can't help view this is a good thing - if it can be made to work.
At a personal level, I've spent years being very cynical about politics and our society in general. I still have a sensible helping of suspicion about the motives of our leaders, but I'm prepared to give a new - and potentially very different group - the benefit of the doubt before I condemn them. Perhaps in another 12months, I'll despise and distrust them as much as I did the Labour administration, but if this comes about, it'll be down to their actions and not my sneering, prejudice and obtuseness. But as I say, this is my own issue. I'm not evangelising. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| BlackRiverFalls I wear a fez now.
Joined: 03 Aug 2003 Total posts: 8716 Location: The Attic of Blinky Lights Age: 44 Gender: Female |
| Posted: 30-05-2010 18:58 Post subject: |
|
|
|
| Quote: | | I hate to wax protestant, but I can't help view this is a good thing - if it can be made to work. |
it can be made to work for people that are some good at what they do and want it to work for them. having spent the last couple of years working with volunteers, i'd have to say i've come across some pretty outstanding ones who did it because they were between jobs or wanted to learn new skills.
flipside is the good ones tend to get paid work so they don;t stick around long and the 3rd sector really is a dumping ground for people with support needs that no-one else wants to meet, for people who are just a bit too bonkers for most working environments, and complete duffers who see volunteering a couple of days as a fair trade off for getting the jobcentre off of their back, in short, it's a pretty complex and tricky situation even before you get into the really less savoury end of the unemployed.
that and the safeguarding stuff that's coming in is going to screw a lot of volunteering, or at least cause a lot of problems when you get into a situation where people are having to wait 12 weeks for their CRB to come through (or longer if it goes wrong the first time) before you can even let them near any environment where there might potentially be children or vulnerable adults. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| Quake42 Warrior Princess
Great Old One Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Total posts: 5310 Location: Over Silbury Hill, through the Solar field Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 30-05-2010 19:19 Post subject: |
|
|
|
| Quote: | | Do you really think the government has no interest in creating jobs? |
The Tories do have something of a history of presiding over mass unemployment and TBH I think on some levels it is used as a policy tool to keep down wages and minimise union power.
| Quote: | | The potential reality: you're a bricky, great, we could use your skills helping with this or that; you can cook, great, can you help out in the school or hospital a morning or two, is a sound one. |
Perhaps I'm old-fashioned, but if there is a demand for a brickie or a chef, why not pay them a proper wage for doing so? You could even call it... oh I dunno... how about a job?
I'm sorry if that sounded too flippant. I've mentioned on another thread that I was unemployed for a few months in late 2008-early 2009. Despite having paid over a hundred thousand of pounds in tax during the previous 13 years of work, I found myself reliant on 60 quid a week, and no housing benefit because I have a mortgage rather than rent. The suggestion that I should have been forced to dig ditches, or whatever, for the privilege of that 60 quid is deeply offensive.
The point of the welfare state is - or should be - that you pay in when you are able and you draw out when you need to. Forcing people who have lost their jobs through no fault of their own to perform menial tasks in order to qualify for measly amounts of money is frankly disgusting. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| merriman_weir Great Old One Joined: 07 May 2009 Total posts: 429 Location: Merry England Age: 45 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 30-05-2010 19:25 Post subject: |
|
|
|
| theyithian wrote: | | Do you really think the government has no interest in creating jobs? They'd clearly like to (another win-win scenario), but that's a hugely difficult proposition in the current climate. We don't have funds - or the potential for borrowing - enough to inject into creating a significant number of jobs ex nihilo as it were, and so are dependent on attracting employers to the UK. You may argue that this isn't effective (although it would be quite demanding to expect results within weeks of taking office), but it's pure rhetoric to suggest the government isn't looking into jobs. |
My point is that jobs should be the first thing they look at. Create a job market for the unemployed, disabled and the lazy to go to first before castigating them and rolling out fairly typical Tory rhetoric.
As for the question regarding whether they want to create jobs, honestly, I’m not sure. When has modern business genuinely put investing in people first and before short-term profits or overall gain? Why invest when you can outsource abroad and push as much technology as possible to reduce labour force generally?
| Quote: | | I'm no spokesman for IDS or his organisation, but increasing skills and employability is part and parcel of attracting employers. Also, the idea of the unemployed working for their own community (providing they are healthy) is a positive one. Because Brits are so jaded, it's hard to suggest such a thing without someone diving off on one, suggesting that you're calling for chain-gangs and slave labour. The potential reality: you're a bricky, great, we could use your skills helping with this or that; |
The irony is here that under the last Tory government a lot councils lost their inhouse builders and the like and started going with private firms rather than ‘the corporation’. Since then, under New Labour, in my local area at least, there’s been waiting lists measured in years to get on ‘trades’ courses at the local college as adult provision in anything other than short term courses with no real certification have been cut back to the point of non-existance. Also, in the same time, we’ve seen tens of thousands of East European tradesmen flood the market making it even harder to get ‘trades’ jobs.
| Quote: | | you can cook, great, can you help out in the school or hospital a morning or two, is a sound one. |
But only after jumping through hoops regarding enhanced CRB checks and a waiting time of around 5 months after intial interviews and the actual waiting for CRB clearance. I’m not exaggerating here because this is part of what I do for half the week.
| Quote: | | With one stone you can get people involved with those around them, and make them feel they've earned something. I hate to wax protestant, but I can't help view this is a good thing - if it can be made to work. |
I should explain that I personally find it baffling that more people don’t do voluntary work anyway. It’s not that I’m against people doing unpaid work or working for the community generally. I genuinely feel people need purpose and a sense of productivity.
However, so much of all this is flawed beyond belief. As with the last government’s ploy is magically making unemployment figures go away by manipulating different kinds of benefits statistics, I guarantee that this will be the same. As you’ve said yourself, there’s no money – and I’ll add little motive – for many UK businesses to invest in people and proper jobs (not this 17 hours a week and a 12 month probationary contract scam). However, by having people doing community work (which will be in uniforms, just like chain gangs – something else I’ll guarantee) it’s the same slight of hand – they’re ‘working’ but not actually working in real jobs.
In turn, if they're kind of working, why bother creating jobs for them at all? Work is being done at fantastically low wages with no real employment laws and this new form of proletariat will be under the government's control.
| Quote: | | At a personal level, I've spent years being very cynical about politics and our society in general. I still have a sensible helping of suspicion about the motives of our leaders, but I'm prepared to give a new - and potentially very different group - the benefit of the doubt before I condemn them. |
As I’ve mentioned in the other thread, we’re only a few weeks in and we’ve had May made Equality Minister (who “thinks” she’d vote differently on gay rights), Law come and go from the Treasury, a turn around on PR and a fob off with AV, cuts in NHS operations declared and more back door privatisation through Academies. It’s been a busy few weeks. I honestly don’t expect any of this to change from hereon in or be that different from previous Tory governments apart from a few different tie colours.
| Quote: | | Perhaps in another 12months, I'll despise and distrust them as much as I did the Labour administration, but if this comes about, it'll be down to their actions and not my sneering, prejudice and obtuseness. But as I say, this is my own issue. I'm not evangelising. |
Fair enough. I’m speaking/sneering for myself too rather than any particular political party: I’ve got blame and a clenched fist for all of them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| theyithian Keeping the British end up
Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Total posts: 11704 Location: Vermilion Sands Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 30-05-2010 19:32 Post subject: |
|
|
|
| Quake42 wrote: | | Quote: | | Do you really think the government has no interest in creating jobs? |
The Tories do have something of a history of presiding over mass unemployment and TBH I think on some levels it is used as a policy tool to keep down wages and minimise union power. |
I don't believe that.
| Quote: | | Perhaps I'm old-fashioned, but if there is a demand for a brickie or a chef, why not pay them a proper wage for doing so? You could even call it... oh I dunno... how about a job? |
A commercial demand may be lacking whilst the skill could still be put to use.
| Quote: | | The suggestion that I should have been forced to dig ditches, or whatever, for the privilege of that 60 quid is deeply offensive. |
I'm not making this suggestion. Unless you're a skilled ditch-digger. Why not have you using the skills you do have.
| Quote: | | The point of the welfare state is - or should be - that you pay in when you are able and you draw out when you need to. |
Fine, I won't argue with that. But I ask: what do we do when the total paid out routinely exceeds the total paid in and the gap widens year-upon-year? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| Quake42 Warrior Princess
Great Old One Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Total posts: 5310 Location: Over Silbury Hill, through the Solar field Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 30-05-2010 19:52 Post subject: |
|
|
|
I'm with Merriman on this. However "workfare" is introduced, you can guarantee that it will involve the following:
1 Compulsion
2 Menial work which provides little or no benefit or training to the unemployed person
3 Crowding out of real jobs - as Merriman says, why pay labourers six quid an hour when you can get the same done by the government chain gang for sixt quid a week?
4 No attempt to match the unemployed person to the "work" available
I don't think uniforms will feature intially, but I don't doubt we will see them in due course. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| BlackRiverFalls I wear a fez now.
Joined: 03 Aug 2003 Total posts: 8716 Location: The Attic of Blinky Lights Age: 44 Gender: Female |
| Posted: 30-05-2010 19:55 Post subject: |
|
|
|
deleted post
Last edited by BlackRiverFalls on 02-06-2010 21:59; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| Quake42 Warrior Princess
Great Old One Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Total posts: 5310 Location: Over Silbury Hill, through the Solar field Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 30-05-2010 20:39 Post subject: |
|
|
|
<Deleted>
Last edited by Quake42 on 02-06-2010 21:33; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| merriman_weir Great Old One Joined: 07 May 2009 Total posts: 429 Location: Merry England Age: 45 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 30-05-2010 20:50 Post subject: |
|
|
|
| Quake42 wrote: | I'm with Merriman on this. However "workfare" is introduced, you can guarantee that it will involve the following:
1 Compulsion
2 Menial work which provides little or no benefit or training to the unemployed person
3 Crowding out of real jobs - as Merriman says, why pay labourers six quid an hour when you can get the same done by the government chain gang for sixt quid a week?
4 No attempt to match the unemployed person to the "work" available
|
When you combine 2 and 4 together, it gets particularly unpalatable and, like most government strategies, a short term affair rather than any long term plan. It will temporarily sate the Daily Mail readers but won't solve anything in the long term.
The idea of training people for work in this is laughable. We've just had ten years of everyone being pushed towards office work and IT then within weeks, this government decides it wants to empty all the offices of the public sector (just after much of the private sector has been resourced out too). And again, no mention of how people will actually get new skills. If all this came with proper, decent recognised training if fields of employment where there's a chance of work, then it might be a different thing all together but it won't. I know that, you know that, and they know that. But, as long as they can quench the blood lust of a particular type of middle-class, that'll do. Being seen to be doing something is easier, cheaper and generally less hassle than actually doing it.
| Quote: | | I don't think uniforms will feature intially, but I don't doubt we will see them in due course. |
They'll come, all right. All the office-based volunteers that work in teams that I've ever come across tend to wear uniforms, even if it's just matching polo shirts or sweat shirts. It doesn't have to be an orange jump suit to mark you out as being part of the 'chain gang'. Also, depending on a lot of the work that does get meted out, if it's heavy duty stuff, then it will be jump suit overalls and they'll all match.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| merriman_weir Great Old One Joined: 07 May 2009 Total posts: 429 Location: Merry England Age: 45 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 30-05-2010 21:21 Post subject: |
|
|
|
| theyithian wrote: | | But I ask: what do we do when the total paid out routinely exceeds the total paid in and the gap widens year-upon-year? |
I don't know? Slash benefits and make benefit claimants perform like dancing bears for Daily Mail and Telegraph readers? Oh... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| Quake42 Warrior Princess
Great Old One Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Total posts: 5310 Location: Over Silbury Hill, through the Solar field Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 30-05-2010 21:24 Post subject: |
|
|
|
| Quote: | | But I ask: what do we do when the total paid out routinely exceeds the total paid in and the gap widens year-upon-year? |
There's lots of things that could be done to reduce/eliminate the deficit without cutting hundreds of thousands of jobs.
You could...
- raise income tax by 1p
- ditch the proposed Trident replacement
- legalise cannabis and tax the profits
They're just a few ideas off the top of my head - I'm sure there are plenty more. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| Cultjunky Great Old One Joined: 26 Jan 2009 Total posts: 1359 Location: Leeds Age: 44 Gender: Female |
| Posted: 30-05-2010 22:45 Post subject: |
|
|
|
| Quake42 wrote: | | Unemployment benefit at the moment is laughably low and I'm appalled by the suggestion that people should be forced to work for it, regardless of how much they have contributed to the pot during their working year. |
Being unemployed at the moment, I'm with you on the laughably low amount of money I recieve, but given the opportunity of a couple of days volunteering to recieve my benefit actually appeals to me. Believe me, I'm twisting out of my mind not doing very much other than filling in applications and searching web sites.
I've tried to volunteer, my first port of call was Leeds Voluntry Service, who kindly advised me that due to the current economic climate, they had been over whelmed with offers, but would get back to me. My local hospital requires an enhanced CRB to serve tea one morning a week, as they are not paying for this, I just assumed I wouldn't be able to afford it, even if I could, can I justify the expence, I think not. My local branch of FOE was another option I looked at, considering I've been paying six quid a month for a couple of years into the organization I figured I at least had a chance there, but no, Chapel Allerton FOE is currently full.
Several folks have pointed out the difficulty of creating jobs, but even creating voluntry work appears somewhat difficult. It is the same old rhetoric, and no doubt will recieve the same response as befor - the creation of schemes to give the unemployable uneccessary skills. The only people who will benefit are the civil sevants whose departments were due to make cuts, instead of job cuts, they will just be seconded to administer another pointless exercise. But I'm sure the stats will look good. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
