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| How do you feel about the Lib-Con Coalition? |
| Best thing since sliced bread! |
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1% |
[ 1 ] |
| Let's just wait and see... |
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15% |
[ 11 ] |
| We call it: 'Masters & Servants'. |
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10% |
[ 8 ] |
| Meet the new boss: same as the old boss. |
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28% |
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| Traitorous Yellow! |
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10% |
[ 8 ] |
| Tory Scum |
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32% |
[ 24 ] |
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| Total Votes : 73 |
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rynner2 What a Cad!
Great Old One Joined: 13 Dec 2008 Total posts: 21365 Location: Under the moon Gender: Male |
 Posted: 04-07-2013 07:32 Post subject: |
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| Cavynaut wrote: | | rynner2 wrote: | | I'm not on benefits, and I don't hear much moaning about the 'cuts' from those that are, because only a few of the promised cuts are actually in place as yet. |
Really? You must move in a very rarefied circle.
You seem to be something of a cheerleader for the present governments policy of austerity. |
This is why I hate party politics. People interpret what you say, or what you don't say, according to their own personal prejudices.
Now I'm being painted as a 'cheerleader' for government policies, when all I've ever attempted to to do is counter some of the mindless braying that comes from their more extreme opponents. In fact, I rarely post about UK politics because of such knee-jerk responses.
My posts in the Trash Europe thread show I'm not a believer in austerity there, so why should I think it's a good thing here? I challenge you to produce any pro-austerity posts from me. |
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| stuneville Administrator
Joined: 09 Mar 2002 Total posts: 10230 Location: FTMB HQ Age: 46 Gender: Male |
| Posted: 04-07-2013 07:55 Post subject: |
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To me, half the problem is that today (more than at any time post-war) we have a cabinet largely consisting of people who have never actually experienced genuine need. Inherited wealth>public school (I leave Oxbridge out of it, as that's still, relatively, egalitarian based on merit)>spad/researcher/unpaid-intern-because-I-can-afford-to-be>politician is not the normal trajectory for anyone but them (and that goes for many in all parties, but is especially noticeable on the right.) To be charitable for a moment, you could argue their ideology doesn't come from a lack of compassion so much as a complete and utter inability to empathise.
The first time I saw this kind of mind-set in action was many years ago, when as a then-council officer, I attended a closed meeting of the (then) Conservative-controlled city council, who were debating a raft of proposed economy-measures, all of which disproportionately disadvantaged the poorer communities and areas. One, seemingly outright-vindictive proposed cut was toward a local initiative in a seriously rundown area, that helped former addicts to break the cycle and work within the community - it also happened to be championed by the then-incumbent Labour leader, who'd helped set it up. The Tory leader, when challenged over this proposal, espoused an opinion I will never forget: he looked vaguely incredulous, and then, in a tone of genuine fascination, asked why the city should support it - as it's "not as if anyone decent wants to go there." At other times he made pronouncements about how the poor should "rely on their savings, not our wallets" - his conduct a while after that started to make the local press, and eventually even the local Conservatives realised it was time to put him out to pasture, although his successors were, and continue to be of much the same stripe - they just keep their opinions a bit more sotto-voce when there are microphones and/or the public around.
OK, my example may be a bit extreme and cartoonish, but this, unfortunately, is the kind of mentality with which we're dealing. |
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| Quake42 Warrior Princess
Great Old One Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Total posts: 5310 Location: Over Silbury Hill, through the Solar field Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 04-07-2013 10:39 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | To me, half the problem is that today (more than at any time post-war) we have a cabinet largely consisting of people who have never actually experienced genuine need. |
Exactly - and not only that, but neither have their family/friends/neighbours. Poverty is completely alien to them. IDS may have spent a few months looking for work when he was laid off from his high powered marketing job, but no doubt he left with a decent severance package, had savings to fall back on and contacts to help him find a new position. It's not comparable to the person laid off from their minimum wage job who was already living from hand to mouth and is forced to rely on payday lenders thanks to the appalling new policy of making claimants wait for a week before accessing benefits.
That said, I think Ryn has a point when he says that the biggest cause of hardship is the increase in food/fuel/housing costs and the failure of wages to keep pace with this. The blame for these cannot be laid at the feet of the current government and I'm not sure the answer is simply to jack up benefit levels to compensate.
The real issue, as I've posted previously, is the changing nature of the economy and the decline in decently paid unskilled and semi-skilled work. Some of this can be blamed on the Thatcher government's ideological attack on heavy and extractive industries but even without that attack automation would have changed the nature of the employment in these sectors. The unskilled jobs available now are typically minimum wage, insecure positions in hospitality etc. Many of them are only viable due to government subsidy via tax credits and other in work benefits.
No government wants to address this as it goes into the "too hard" box so instead we have lots of divisive rhetoric about "skivers vs strivers" and "wealthy pensioners stealing homes from young people". |
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| Cochise Great Old One Joined: 17 Jun 2011 Total posts: 1104 Location: Gwynedd, Wales Age: 58 Gender: Male |
| Posted: 04-07-2013 12:39 Post subject: |
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| Quake42 wrote: | The real issue, as I've posted previously, is the changing nature of the economy and the decline in decently paid unskilled and semi-skilled work. Some of this can be blamed on the Thatcher government's ideological attack on heavy and extractive industries but even without that attack automation would have changed the nature of the employment in these sectors. The unskilled jobs available now are typically minimum wage, insecure positions in hospitality etc. Many of them are only viable due to government subsidy via tax credits and other in work benefits.
No government wants to address this as it goes into the "too hard" box so instead we have lots of divisive rhetoric about "skivers vs strivers" and "wealthy pensioners stealing homes from young people". |
Indeed. even if, say , the coal mines were still going health and safety would have dictated automation underground and a drastic reduction in jobs as a result.
We are basically being fed divisive B/S to disguise that fact that successive governments - including Thatchers - have failed to find or foster adequate new industries to replace the old ones - bearing in mind that not everyone can be a rocket scientist or even a fund manager. All that has been done is to fund non-jobs and various other means of taking people off the unemployment register while denying them any sort of opportunity to do something worthwhile they can take pride in. Demeaning essential but unglamorous jobs hardly helps, nor does making everyone think that we can all be university graduates or pop stars.
Against that background, permitting unlimited immigration - from anywhere - is madness. The NHS and welfare state can only be maintained if a higher percentage of our population are in gainful employment. |
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| Quake42 Warrior Princess
Great Old One Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Total posts: 5310 Location: Over Silbury Hill, through the Solar field Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 04-07-2013 13:17 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Against that background, permitting unlimited immigration - from anywhere - is madness. The NHS and welfare state can only be maintained if a higher percentage of our population are in gainful employment. |
Yes. Immigration is positive when it involves skilled, educated people who are net contributors to the economy and who assimilate easily into the existing culture. Unfortunately much of the immigration we have seen since over the last 10-15 years has involved individuals who have not met that description. Hence the bizarre outcry last week about non-English speakers being expected to learn the language to claim benefits... |
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| jimv1 Great Old One Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Total posts: 2734 Gender: Male |
| Posted: 06-07-2013 10:09 Post subject: |
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In Tescos yesterday, a man looked at the food bank stall they'd set up and made some comment about bankers. The rise of food banks is not a thing I expected to see growing here. If I were being cynical - which I usually am, customers buying an extra item to donate to a food bank is a sound business idea for Tesco. However, with so much food being thrown away couldn't the supermarkets get together and do more to distribute the leftovers? I suppose the answer is, it's not their problem to resolve the hunger of those on welfare and there are probably legal reasons why just going out of date food can't be distributed.
The fact that food banks are cropping up all over the place is the worst indictment of a government I have seen in a long, long time. The bloke in Tescos made the connection between the flailing economy and the need for food banks which raises a thorny issue of politicised food. Will there be those who say 'I have to buy mine, why should people get theirs for free?'.
Soylent Green here we come. |
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| gerardwilkie Great Old One Joined: 17 Oct 2001 Total posts: 851 Location: Scotland Age: 42 Gender: Male |
| Posted: 06-07-2013 11:04 Post subject: |
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The one thing that really gets my goat about the current government is the blame they constantly put on the previous one , and that they use this to justify any 'difficult' decisions they make.
No government is perfect , and whilst it is true that we are indeed we are in a financial mess , how much of that can we really blame on Gordon Brown , as the recession is more or less on an international scale and not just the UK. Gordon Brown was in a difficult predicament as the recession was starting to show signs under his governance , but I still think he was adept at planning for the future and leading us out of recession , which the current government seem unable to do. And at the time the Tories maintained that under their rule they would match Labour spending , if not exceed it . And now they say Labour spent too much and blame the current financial situation on them alone.
But still they want a £10,000 pay rise after telling us "we're all in this together". |
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| jimv1 Great Old One Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Total posts: 2734 Gender: Male |
| Posted: 06-07-2013 11:53 Post subject: |
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| We are all in it together. It's just that some are doing a lot better than the rest of the population. |
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| theyithian Keeping the British end up
Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Total posts: 11704 Location: Vermilion Sands Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 06-07-2013 13:00 Post subject: |
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| gerardwilkie wrote: | | The one thing that really gets my goat about the current government is the blame they constantly put on the previous one , and that they use this to justify any 'difficult' decisions... |
See also: 1979 and 1997. In all three cases the incoming administratons did have a point to an extent; there's a reason the government of the day gets the boot and it's very often the case with long rule by a single party that the problems are deep, endemic and systematic - if there were quick fixes to hand they would have been tried by the existing government.
All that said, new government milks the period of acceptable grace far longer than can be justified. I'm tempted to say that the economic problems facing the coalition are unprecedented - on paper they appear so - but equally they claimed to have the answers: haven't seen them yet! |
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| jimv1 Great Old One Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Total posts: 2734 Gender: Male |
| Posted: 11-07-2013 00:31 Post subject: |
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Why won't anyone listen to me?
The economy is fucked for a generation.
| Quote: | In all three cases the incoming administratons did have a point to an extent; there's a reason the government of the day gets the boot and it's very often the case with long rule by a single party that the problems are deep, endemic and systematic - if there were quick fixes to hand they would have been tried by the existing government.
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Let's not forget that most of our banky economick woes are mostly the result of the short term demands of shareholders who appointed the guys to run the banks. Where the old bank manager in the closet would draw up plans for the fiscal stability of his institution for 25 years, new appointees are expected to provide profit after profit on a quarterly basis. I doubt this has changed.
Another thing to bear in mind is that sometimes, positive and beneficial government plans can take up to five years to mature so it's possible to see a party's path made easier by the actions of a previous government. Of course, the party in power claims all the credit and blame all the bad stuff on the outgoing bunch. Blatantly.
But honestly, we all seem perfectly happy to go along with this and the big pretend that we're all fools and soak up each new pronouncement as if it's going to get us anywhere. We argue against it with as much effect as a drowning man attempting to deny himself water. As much as we may put our points across on this thread, it's just playtime. It's all fucked to buggery and the sooner we wise up and realise that whereas a few decades ago, our politicians were merely moderately inefficient at coping on a global level, they can't even get their shit together on piffling local issues these days.
We are living in Fuckopolis and what's even more insulting is they are watching our empty and futile squawks.
....and I fully expect Gove to set up a new exam on that after his next three attempts at screwing with education policy U-turn like a tapeworm.
Although these days, a U-Turn is viewed as positive action. God help us. |
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| Cochise Great Old One Joined: 17 Jun 2011 Total posts: 1104 Location: Gwynedd, Wales Age: 58 Gender: Male |
| Posted: 11-07-2013 08:34 Post subject: |
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| jimv1 wrote: | Why won't anyone listen to me?
The economy is fucked for a generation.
| Quote: | In all three cases the incoming administratons did have a point to an extent; there's a reason the government of the day gets the boot and it's very often the case with long rule by a single party that the problems are deep, endemic and systematic - if there were quick fixes to hand they would have been tried by the existing government.
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Let's not forget that most of our banky economick woes are mostly the result of the short term demands of shareholders who appointed the guys to run the banks. Where the old bank manager in the closet would draw up plans for the fiscal stability of his institution for 25 years, new appointees are expected to provide profit after profit on a quarterly basis. I doubt this has changed.
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But its not just the banks. All quoted companies are obsessed with short term gains and ever growing market shares at the expense of everyone's long term interests. It is due to the change in the nature of shareholders. They originally were - in the main - people with capital who wanted a long term income from dividends. They are now simply another species of gambler who make their money by profit of sales of shares. The institutional shareholders, instead of fighting this , play King Log.
Normally, such counter-productive behaviour would be terminated in the traditional way, by a crash. This has the effect of driving the speculators out of the market for a while, and normal constructive economics returns for anything from a decade to a century when the lesson has been forgotten.
Unfortunately the workings of the market are nowadays actively rigged (since 9/11 at least) to prevent this 'short sharp shock' to rectify the shareholder's behaviour. This is done by automatic buying programs that kick in if the market falls below a certain level.
There should have been a crash about 4 or 5 years ago - the fact that one can't happen any more is simply rewarding the wrong sort of behaviour by banks and other large firms, as is bailing out the banks that got themselves into the deepest trouble. The net result is a perpetual South Sea Bubble or Railway Mania.
But not only does this interference remove one of the vital checks and balances in capitalism, it is a parable for wider life - if you remove the consequences of risk you also remove the correctives for inappropriate behaviour - especially that sort of mildly inappropriate behaviour that individuals can convince themselves is OK because its destructive effects are longer term and in any case happen to other people. Responsibility in government posts, for example - no sacking and humiliation = no need to take responsibility seriously.
God help us indeed. |
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| Cavynaut Skoumed!
Usually tired. Joined: 10 Apr 2003 Total posts: 1976 Location: Crouch Wailing. UK. Age: 56 Gender: Male |
| Posted: 22-07-2013 02:30 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Tory strategist Lynton Crosby in new lobbying row
Exclusive: Firm he founded, Crosby Textor, advised private healthcare providers how to exploit NHS 'failings' |
What is it about right wing Aussies that attract them back to the UK? Oh yeah, it's a natural home for greedy bastards.
| Quote: | The lobbying firm founded by the Tories' chief election strategist, Lynton Crosby, advised private healthcare providers on how to exploit perceived "failings" in the NHS, according to a leaked document obtained by the Guardian.
The existence of the presentation by Crosby Textor to the H5 Private Healthcare Alliance will add to pressure on David Cameron, who on Sunday declined once again to say whether he discussed tobacco policy with Crosby, whose company advises Philip Morris International.
Labour warned of a "shocking conflict of interest" involving the man charged with running the Tory general election campaign.
The leaked document – which consists of slides from a presentation – show that Crosby Textor advised the H5 Private Healthcare Alliance on how to promote themselves amid a highly sensitive debate on the future of the NHS. |
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/jul/21/tory-strategist-lynton-crosby-lobbying |
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| jimv1 Great Old One Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Total posts: 2734 Gender: Male |
| Posted: 04-08-2013 09:51 Post subject: |
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Well, they've had a go at the disabled, carried on the Crusade against the employed so it's only natural that the Tories should revive their old hatred of the North East.
| Quote: | Fracking row peer Lord Howell to visit North East
Lord Howell Downing Street said Lord Howell did not speak for the government.
The Conservative peer who apologised for saying fracking should take place in the "desolate" North East has accepted an invitation to visit the region.
Lord Howell's remarks caused outrage on Tuesday and led Wansbeck MP Ian Lavery to invite him to the area.
The peer said he would "try to fit in a visit". |
Actually, the fracking area under consideration is the North West but such is the Tory disdain for the region, facts aren't necessary.
And the real irony is that if there is any reason the North could be described as desolate, it's because the Tories waged war against the miners and other manufacturing industries and shut the pits and fractured the communities. Now there's a frack for shale gas and oil, where's the best (and furthest from my constituency) place to ruin in a new search for energy?
Tories - They never, ever change. |
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| OneWingedBird Great Old One Joined: 19 Nov 2012 Total posts: 542 Location: Attice of blinkey lights Age: 44 Gender: Female |
| Posted: 05-08-2013 18:51 Post subject: |
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| Funny that, I was thinking there were an awful lot of 'never kissed a tory' badges at Leeds Pride yesterday. |
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| jimv1 Great Old One Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Total posts: 2734 Gender: Male |
| Posted: 05-08-2013 19:16 Post subject: |
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Re your sig OneWinged.
I used to work with an elderly gentleman who had a much-loved classic motorbike stolen. After getting a replacement, he told me he drilled a hole in the bottom of the fuel tank and set up a connected spark plug in there which he would disconnect before starting.
'They'd only do it once', he cheerily said. |
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