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Before Columbus sailed the ocean blue
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Anonymous
PostPosted: 19-12-2001 16:10    Post subject: Gaelic-speaking native Americans Reply with quote

I seem to recall something about native Americans found speaking Gaelic, but I'm having real trouble locating anything about it. The nearest I can get is that Gaelic is still spoken in pockets of Nova Scotia -- not the same thing! Could anyone give me any pointers on this one?
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Anonymous
PostPosted: 19-12-2001 16:48    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recall hearing about this a couple of years ago, too. There was a study that found there are certain gaelic words that crop up in various native american languages. I think the theory was that some welsh seafarers settled there many centuries ago and peacefully joined the locals. This tied in with welsh myths of people travelling over the sea to a strange land.

I think it was welsh (which I know is celtic/brythonic rather than gaelic), anyway.

Sorry, that's all I can remember.


Smile

Later:

I've had a wander round the 'net and found this:

http://www.tylwythteg.com/nativeamer/native2.html

Cool


Last edited by Guest on 19-12-2001 17:12; edited 1 time in total
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Anonymous
PostPosted: 19-12-2001 18:18    Post subject: Reply with quote

Comes from the legend of Prince Madog of Gwynedd, after whom Porthmadog in Clwyd is supposed to be named. He is one of the many Europeans who allegedly arrived in NA pre-columbus. Im at work now so Ive not got any refs but there were many legends in colonial and early independence period of White Tribes, often referring specifically to welsh speaking indians. A particular tribe at the north of the MIssouri river beginning with "m" spring to mind: will check up. Lewis-Clark (1st to cross from USA to pacific l8 18th or early 19th) expedition was specifically instructed by Jefferson to look for welsh speaking tribe. (Lewis was of welsh descent)
Twll tin pob Sioux


Last edited by Guest on 19-12-2001 18:54; edited 1 time in total
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Anonymous
PostPosted: 19-12-2001 18:43    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A particular tribe at the north of the MIssouri river beginning with "m" spring to mind:


The Mandan.

It's also interesting that there are similar tales of bearded men arriving from afar in South America, too.

Smile
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Anonymous
PostPosted: 19-12-2001 18:58    Post subject: Reply with quote

Viracocha in Peru and Bolivia (which is still a nickname for bearded white men). But thata a different kettle of Titicaca trout.
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Anonymous
PostPosted: 19-12-2001 21:23    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been looking into this story recently. Prince Madoc is said to have landed at Mobile Bay, Alabama (I live in Alabama, about 4 1/2 hours northwest of Mobile). I ran across this after a passing mention about a pre-Columbus settlement in Alabama in FT a few months back. I work for Alabama Public Television and have been entertaining thoughts of doing a documentary on the subject. There is even a monument to Prince Madoc in Mobile. There's lots of info on the web. Here are a few:
www.madoc1170.com/
www.where-can-i-find.com/wales/history/madoc.htm
www.barstow.cc.ca.us/wac/madoc.htm
http://home.att.net/~dana.olson/

sureshot
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rynner
Location: Still above sea level
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PostPosted: 19-12-2001 21:42    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, sureshot, a documentary would certainly interest people on this side of the pond as well as your local audience: GO FOR IT!

PS: The word 'audience' seems to refer to something heard, audible - now that many telecomms are mainly visual, should we have a posh word for 'viewers'?!
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Ronson8Offline
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PostPosted: 19-12-2001 23:56    Post subject: Reply with quote

I seem to remember a tv program a couple of years ago refering to a small island, I think it was off the coast of Maine, who's inhabitants spoke with a distinctly Cornish accent.
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Anonymous
PostPosted: 20-12-2001 09:44    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's fantastic. Thank you all for taking me right to the heart of it. I was being lead astray, I think, by looking for Gaelic rather than Welsh.

What's been said fits so well with my memory/what I've been told that I'm operating on the assumption that there's no Gaelic story as well.

Now I have to go away and read this up...

Oh, and a documentary on it would be an excellent idea. I can just see it going out on BBC2 or Channel 4 here.

With gratitude

Jon
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BreakfastologistOffline
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PostPosted: 20-12-2001 15:29    Post subject: Reply with quote

For gaelic travellers, you might want to look up St Brendan. "The Brendan Voyage" by Tim Severin where he goes out Kon Tiki style to prove that it was possible to cross the Atlantic in an old irish style corracle is a fantastic read.
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Anonymous
PostPosted: 21-12-2001 04:53    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might want to try this. I believe it's what you were asking about, unless I'm mistaken.

There was an article here http://www.forteantimes.com/artic/106/melung.html at one time; however, it seems to be MIA now, for some reason.

Interesting stuff--my grandfather claimed to be one of these "black Irish;" of course, he was full of $#!+.


Last edited by Guest on 21-12-2001 05:00; edited 1 time in total
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Anonymous
PostPosted: 21-12-2001 10:33    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are a couple of other non-fortean (ie accepted by the scientific community) celtic speaking Native American stories. Including welsh speaking Araucanian or Mapuche indigenas in Chile (source "In Patagonia" by Bruce Chatwin (not V reliable) and "Travels in an Ancient Tongue" author escapes me but recent and quite well known in UK) and Irish speaking black slaves on Montserrat ("If the Irish ruled the world" Liverpool University Press. Also in lots of linguistics journals esp those dealing with Creoles and Pidgins)
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Anonymous
PostPosted: 21-12-2001 10:44    Post subject: Reply with quote

TorgosPizza wrote:

Interesting stuff--my grandfather claimed to be one of these "black Irish;" of course, he was full of $#!+.

I always thought that the term "Black Irish" referred to the lower-class Irish peasantry, because they usually had black hair and heavily tanned skin.
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Anonymous
PostPosted: 21-12-2001 14:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's something about this in Jan Morris' book "Wales", with some examples of words which show remarkable similarities. I don't have the book with me right now, but I'll look it up when I get home (sherry & mince pies permittnig, of course!). Fascinating! I'd like to see some sort of further investigation / documentary too.

Fizz
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Anonymous
PostPosted: 22-12-2001 05:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Originally posted by Annasdottir
[B]
I always thought that the term "Black Irish" referred to the lower-class Irish peasantry, because they usually had black hair and heavily tanned skin.


You're probably right, I'd guess. If you're interested, hit Google and search for "black irish"--it seems the term's used rather loosely, covering all sorts of people.
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