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Ley lines
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brianellwoodOffline
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PostPosted: 20-11-2003 12:21    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think leys are a human thing. If you use a site as a sacred space they will come or form,if you abandon a site they will fade or vanish.

I've just wasted ages trying to find one of my previous posts - without success- so here it is again, cos I think it's relevant:
A friend erected a 'sacred sculpture' just beyond my garden and held a ceremony with the local pagans to energise it. Eventually, due to protests etc. the sculpture was moved to another site. One of the granite posts belonged to me, so my friend replaced my 'standing stone', which became part of the sculpture, with an old granite gate post. Dowsing for water on the carn i dowsed the stone with no response, later my son dowsed it also with nill response. Now comes the interesting bit... one night at full moon, kids in bed, I crept out and taking a stick, beat the stone whilst reciting the bit of the ceremony my friend had used (calling down the moon power, deities etc). I must say I'd had a cider ot two but still felt anxious my neighbours might spot this maniac attacking a granite post at night. At weekend I dowsed the stone and got an immediate reaction...fair enough, 'cos I'd done the ceremony - but it still astonished me! Next, James dowsed the stone independantly and reported a reaction too, but didn't know about my escapades. So, what has changed in the stone to "energise" it? Last time I checked about a year ago, I still got a reaction. Are we then responsible for creating these energies?Back to u Marion Very Happy
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FraterLibreOffline
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PostPosted: 20-11-2003 15:02    Post subject: Home and Hearth Reply with quote

I don't think sacred sites are ever really homes, nor meant to be. You're quite right, though. If anyone's dream home is a pre-fab cube slapped together with the cheapest materiels, then they've had their dreams subverted and replaced with ashes, haven't they?
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marionXXXOffline
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PostPosted: 20-11-2003 18:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't mean sacred site were homes,I meant in the old days people could put houses where they felt it was right, making them fit in with the world and feel good, they are much better places to live than lego estates dumped down just because the council lets people put them there,sacred sites would have been chosen in the same way, cause it felt right to put them there.
Living in a sacred site is a bit intense, some people can't cope but I like it!
I've heard of a few examples of new sacred spaces becoming energised (at an EM group meeting,the subject was 'what makes a sacred space?) such as a labyrinth and in one case just a building that someone used to walk round spinning a buddhist prayer wheel! Its maybe a localised energy rather than a linear one. (I'm only just starting out learning about this stuff, having to be careful not to take on other people's way of thinking,I want to keep my own innocent belief in what I feel.)
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FraterLibreOffline
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PostPosted: 20-11-2003 19:46    Post subject: Feng Shui Reply with quote

Marion - Quite right, when the world was less populated and not every bit of land was claimed as owned, many were able to settle where they wished, and often chose the prettiest, best-feeling places. Many of those were what we'd now call sacred, yes.

The developments of endless tract housing contribute to our downfall and should be eradicated. People sense this, which is one reason Feng Shui is making such a come-back. People know something's wrong, off-balance, and in need of attention but they don't know what, so many seek out old ways.

Sometimes it even helps.

Sounds as if you're doing well in keeping your own senses clear. Good for you. Think for yourself and find your own way.
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Jerry_BOffline
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PostPosted: 20-11-2003 20:13    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tend to think that the whole subject of leys are in the realm of the imagination rather than anything real per se. They started off as something else with Watkins, but even then they may have been a flight of fancy on his part. To all intents and purposes, leys (be they tracks or 'lines of power', etc) are imposed upon any given landscape by those who are looking for them.

WRT dowsing for them - again, I think this is something that's imposed onto the ground. I would go as far to say that they are a form of suggestion. Take for instance, the map Marion gave of leys running through Glastonbury. Glastonbury isn't a religious site in any way aside from it's Christian aspect, but it still draws a variety of people because of some implied (and IMHO erroneous) mysticism. And so of course the area is thick with supposed leys. That map also shows Lamyatt Beacon, a pre-Christian religious site with a long history - but this has very few leys running through it. I'd suggest that this is because people do not not generally know of it's past and therfore aren't imposing the leys onto that point. They're not imbuing that place with any mystical wants or needs.

I think this all miles different from actual dowsing for water, which could possibly some extension of a relic capability our ancestors had for locating water supplies. But I think dowsing for anything else is a mish-mash of various things, that in turn were probably sparked off by T.C. Lethbridge and a few others.
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marionXXXOffline
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PostPosted: 20-11-2003 20:40    Post subject: Reply with quote

JerryB wrote:

I tend to think that the whole subject of leys are in the realm of the imagination rather than anything real per se. They started off as something else with Watkins, but even then they may have been a flight of fancy on his part. To all intents and purposes, leys (be they tracks or 'lines of power', etc) are imposed upon any given landscape by those who are looking for them.


Like landscape zodiacs-maybe created by people but there now- I can feel some leys if I try (I don't like to dowse with rods or whatever)

Quote:
WRT dowsing for them - again, I think this is something that's imposed onto the ground. I would go as far to say that they are a form of suggestion. Take for instance, the map Marion gave of leys running through Glastonbury. Glastonbury isn't a religious site in any way aside from it's Christian aspect, but it still draws a variety of people because of some implied (and IMHO erroneous) mysticism. And so of course the area is thick with supposed leys. That map also shows Lamyatt Beacon, a pre-Christian religious site with a long history - but this has very few leys running through it. I'd suggest that this is because people do not not generally know of it's past and therfore aren't imposing the leys onto that point. They're not imbuing that place with any mystical wants or needs.



There might not be anything specifically written or scientifically found to back up earlier religious/spiritual activity in Glastonbury (not that I've come across yet anyway) but I can't believe pre-Roman people came here,to a place rising sharply above low ground , with a pointed hill with a white mineral spring coming from a cave and a rounded hill with a red mineral spring just yards away from the white,echoing primitive red/white dyad beliefs and just think 'Oooh I'll settle here and grow apples and cows'.
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FraterLibreOffline
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PostPosted: 20-11-2003 20:52    Post subject: A Balance Reply with quote

Like most things spiritual and paranormal in tone, it's probably about 95% psychological and 5% something outside our heads, what ever that may be.
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Jerry_BOffline
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PostPosted: 20-11-2003 22:30    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marion wrote:

There might not be anything specifically written or scientifically found to back up earlier religious/spiritual activity in Glastonbury (not that I've come across yet anyway) but I can't believe pre-Roman people came here,to a place rising sharply above low ground , with a pointed hill with a white mineral spring coming from a cave and a rounded hill with a red mineral spring just yards away from the white,echoing primitive red/white dyad beliefs and just think 'Oooh I'll settle here and grow apples and cows'.


Looks like they went to Lamyatt Beacon instead - there's evidence there of a possible pre-Roman religious site (a circle of buried red deer antlers). As the 'Landscape Mysteries' prog showed tonight, the Tor had to be pretty heavily altered to support any sort of crop, was covered by woods in the Neolithic, and that pre-Roman socities nearby instead chose to use others areas in which to live in. I tend to think that the whole shebang about the Tor is all down to those monks who used to live down the road in Glastonbury, which was amplified by the New Age movement Wink I think it tends to boil down to believing something about the Tor, rather than having anything tangible to focus on.
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rynner
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PostPosted: 22-11-2003 14:51    Post subject: Reply with quote

Several further posts on Glastonbury have been split off into a new thread Smile
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FraterLibreOffline
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PostPosted: 22-11-2003 22:58    Post subject: Swap Reply with quote

And here I thought your joy in life was merging threads.
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PostPosted: 22-11-2003 23:01    Post subject: Re: Swap Reply with quote

FraterLibre wrote:

And here I thought your joy in life was merging threads.
Rynner may be trying a new direction. Smile
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marionXXXOffline
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PostPosted: 22-11-2003 23:16    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just wait til he finds our there is already a Glasonbury thread! Very Happy
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rynner
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PostPosted: 23-11-2003 09:42    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marion wrote:

Just wait til he finds our there is already a Glasonbury thread! Very Happy

There are several. I'll get round to it some time... Very Happy
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Anonymous
PostPosted: 07-12-2003 05:51    Post subject: some comments on reasoning and the form of ley lines Reply with quote

To all:

A quality of truth is its seamless interaction with, derivation from and likely reference back to universal verities. Those things that were accorded the sobriquet "true" tend to lead to those things later considered "true", as well. And, in many cases, later "truths" can even be used to "prove" the previous "truths" that led to them. The sum of 2 and 2 will only be 4; certain operations with 4 can be used to work "backwards" to the sum of 2 with itself. That is not the way with what is considered "untruth". Adding 2 to itself will not yield 5, and no legitimate mathematical process will begin with 5 and end with a partition into 2's twice. "Untruth", on the other hand, tends to be proposed with collage "arguments" made up of only a few "truths", some misinterpretations, and some misdirections, aided with, likely, only some legitimate analysis, possibly accompanied by some convincing, but invalid, flummoxing. The untrustworthy might say that 2 + 2 isn't 3, it isn't 6, it isn't 7, it isn't 8, and so on, and end by "concluding" that the evidence indicates that 5 could be the sum. Perhaps that can be a defining characteristic of "truth", not so much that any one fact can be demonstrably derived from provable facts, but, rather, that it is but one of an internally consistent system of "facts", at least some of which qualify as "fundamental truths".

Much of this mirrors "arguments" that such as Frater Libre and JerryB use in their construction of the "explanation" for important sites being placed on straight line tracks, but those tracks not being motivated by some kind of ley energy. Frater Libre, for example, insists: "In a reasonably flat land, why curve roads?", while JerryB says that, maybe, "important sites tend to be along straight lines as it may have been important for them to be intervisible, perhaps as those people who used them trevelled from site to another"

. The suggestion, as is borne out by the theorizing about ley lines, connects significant ritual sites with ley line paths, but, then, appears to segue uncomfortably to an unsupported extrapolation from the geometric idea of a straight line. To be sure, by definition, a "straight line" is the shortest distance between two points, but ley line sites constitute a collection of points! If your idea is to site a number of places so that, as an aggregate, travel between them would be shortest, and communication between all of them the most direct, a straight line path is among the least efficient! Indeed, if you have an important site between you and the next one, all along a straight track, it would not be possible to see the next site! Sites all along a straight line path would not be "intervisible"!

In fact, if you wished to set out a series of important ritual sites, to keep them "intervisible", located within easy travelling distance of each other, and available for a "pilgrimage" type of trip, a circular path would be more amenable! A collection of important sites, set up along the borders of a circle would satisfy all the criteria! There may be straight line paths from one to the other, but the overall path of their distribution need not be! The Stations of the Cross is a good example. If you have twelve sites, each one mile from the next, to travel to the end, then back where you came from would be a 24 mile trip. If they were distributed in a circle, after travelling for 12 miles, you would end up back where you entered, and wouldn't have to retrace your steps! And, all the while, you would be able to see across the body of the circle, to the other sites! If ceremonial sites are located along a straight line, ease of travel, and direct commuting from one to the other is not a part of it! The use of the geometric quality of straight lines as an "argument" for their use in siting ceremonial sites is patently fallacious, and should be abandoned. Those with an honest interest in investigating the matter would not pursue that line of "argument" further.

Which means they would have to provide another suggestion for any putative "efficient engineering quality" in siting points along a straight line, or admit that something other than siting was the reason for placing important centers along straight lines!

Addressing some other matters, with respect to the issue, and other aspects of the issue, among other things, in considering the placement of the Stations of the Cross in a circular pattern, it began to seem reasonable to question whether other circular ceremonial sites might not also have played the same role. The formation of stones at Stonehenge, for example, could immediately call to mind a kind of ceremonial procession from one pair of standing stones to the next, a different prayer or ceremony being performed in each "archway"!

The suggestion has been made that patterns of pathways through boggy territories in Britain might also be related to the formation of ley line roads. Are similar paths, or boat routes, in the American bayous in any way similar to the paths to be found in Britain's bogs?

And Frater Libre insists on indulging in what they try to represent as "legitimate scientific investigation" while, in reality, engaging in little more than obfuscation. "It remains a valid question", they demand repeatedly, "Are Ley Lines actual or are they projections from our expectations? Are they artifacts of our brains' pattern-finding tendency?"

If you represent any pattern that is perceived as the remnant of an automatic "pattern-finding tendency" in human brains, then you cannot assign reality to anything! If you release a pencil a thousand times, and it falls to the ground, is that because there is such a thing as gravity, or is that a pattern you are assigning, based on the repetition of events? Certainly, Frater Libre seems willing to say that a thousand ceremonial sites, all located on the same straight line, does not connote that something is causing them to be located there; why, then, should a thousand pencils falling be interpreted as sign of a universal and reliable force?



Julian Penrod
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Jerry_BOffline
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PostPosted: 07-12-2003 10:49    Post subject: Reply with quote

The point WRT to sites along a straight line is that you could probably do the same thing with more mundane sites on any given map. Things like pertrol stations, hospitals, libraries, etc. or pratically anything could possibly line up. This doesn't mean that there's any esoteric connection bewteen such sites. The problem is that the whole subject of leys has become confused - it's starts off as theories about trackways (which in open countryside tend to follow straight, shortest point to point A to point B lines) to a mish-mash of theories about dowsing and lines of energy, etc.. Whilst the former theory may or may not have some little merit, the latter is IMHO a modern projection of a theory onto a misunderstanding of what Watkins was saying.

Personally, my jury is still out as to whether any sites are connected along any sort of line. But I still think that others may assign lines that interconnect sites by the human tendency to find patterns in things. It's a sort of simulacra, as it were.
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