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Forest Boy, Ray: The Return of Kaspar Hauser
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eminaOffline
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PostPosted: 30-09-2011 20:55    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ronnor wrote:
emina wrote:
Strange one.

Firstly, how do they know he's 17?

Secondly, what happens when he's 18? How will they know when he's 18?


From the Dail Mail article on page one of the thread:

Quote:
The teenager arrived in the capital on September 5 carrying only a tent, sleeping bag and rucksack. He claimed he could not remember anything of his life before he entered the forest but was able to tell officers his date of birth. Despite being dishevelled, he was described as ‘healthy’ and showed no signs of malnourishment or abuse.


Well, this was kind of my point. (Sorry if I didn't make it clear.) As Rynner has also pointed out, they only have his word to go on, and given all the other facts surounding the story, it can't be regarded as 100 percent reliable.

I'd imagine that it must be significant, because if he's minor, they must be obliged to take care of him, whereas if he's 18 and doesn't want to cooperate, what can they do?
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liveinabin1Offline
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PostPosted: 30-09-2011 23:01    Post subject: Reply with quote

His name, Ray and his mothers, Doreen just don't sit well with me. Ray is just not a name for a 17 year old, and his mother would be between 40 and 50. I don't know many people that age called Doreen.

My thought is that he is from some kind of manically religious family who have home schooled him. He said that his father taught him to read, why not at school? Why does he have no memory or schooling? Why did his father tell him to learn English because it was an important language?

If we take his story at face value, that there was a car crash 5 years ago which killed his mother and he has been in the forest ever since, it leaves so many questions unanswered. There would have been an accident leaving a car and a body that surely would have been found by now?
If he is from the UK or another English speaking country then he would have had to have been in education or at least registered for home schooling?
Why does he have no memory of a home, school or neighbourhood?
Why doesn't he know his second name?

I think that he has been living, completely unknown to the authorities in the woods and his father taught him English because it is a useful language and maybe even the father's mother tongue.
Ray was told that is anything happened to his parents then he was to head north to Berlin.
He has been completely alone in the woods for a few months, rather than years. He may not understand the concept of a year. Or his father told him to say it had been that long so their house wouldn't be found.


So are the woods in Germany big enough to people to live undetected?


Last edited by liveinabin1 on 01-10-2011 13:44; edited 1 time in total
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MythopoeikaOffline
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PostPosted: 30-09-2011 23:29    Post subject: Reply with quote

liveinabin1 wrote:
So are the woods in Germany big enough to people to live undetected?


Well, the Black Forest is still pretty big...
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rjmrjmrjmOffline
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PostPosted: 01-10-2011 00:43    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://youtu.be/oQrBxslfX-o
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PeripartOffline
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PostPosted: 01-10-2011 15:50    Post subject: Reply with quote

So many questions surrounding this bizarre case that the truth, if and when it's known, is bound to seem rather mundane...
liveinabin1 wrote:
His name, Ray and his mothers, Doreen just don't sit well with me. Ray is just not a name for a 17 year old, and his mother would be between 40 and 50. I don't know many people that age called Doreen.

I agree that Doreen is no proper name for an under-50 (apologies to any youthful Doreens reading this, but I can't think of a single one under 70!), but it's quite conceivable that a 17-year-old might be called Ray. There's that cheeky young singer who did well on one of the TV reality shows recently, for starters.
liveinabin wrote:
If we take his story at face value, that there was a car crash 5 years ago which killed his mother and he has been in the forest ever since, it leaves so many questions unanswered. There would have been an accident leaving a car and a body that surely would have been found by now?

Forgive me for not re-reading the whole thread, but is it possible that the car crash was actually a well-documented event, and that the father only went AWOL with his son after the crash? Perhaps he found the early months of bereavement especially difficult, and he took his son away for a break, and things untangled further after that, culminating in 5 years in the woods?
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ramonmercadoOffline
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PostPosted: 08-10-2011 14:08    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Couple claim German 'forest boy' is their grandson
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/couple-claim-german-forest-boy-is-their-grandson-2900065.html
By Fiona Govan in Berlin
Saturday October 08 2011

A Swiss couple have come forward to claim the mysterious 17-year-old boy who said he had been living in a German forest for five years, in the belief he may be their missing grandson.

The elderly pair contacted Berlin police last week after seeing an "e-fit" of the English-speaking teenager, who has been in the care of social services since walking into Berlin City Hall a month ago.

They are keen to provide a DNA sample to be tested against that of the boy, who says his name is Ray, but he has so far refused to co-operate with attempts to track down remaining family.

Berlin authorities said they had received "many many" appeals from people across the world who thought the "forest boy" could be a missing relative, but added that most claims had been ruled out.

The teenager arrived in Berlin last month claiming to have walked north to the capital after burying his father in the woods when he died in a fall.

He remembers nothing about his upbringing except that he and his father had been living in the forest since the death of his mother Doreen, in a car crash five years ago.

But police have become suspicious of his story after he refused to make a public appeal or co-operate in the investigation
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locussolusOffline
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PostPosted: 08-10-2011 21:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forgive me if this has been touched upon, as I believe I have read the entire thread but could have missed some points.

Does it look to anyone else like the photograph of "Ray" is a collaged composite of features? There is something truly off about that picture that I can't put down to just being underweight.
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MythopoeikaOffline
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PostPosted: 08-10-2011 21:30    Post subject: Reply with quote

locussolus wrote:
Forgive me if this has been touched upon, as I believe I have read the entire thread but could have missed some points.

Does it look to anyone else like the photograph of "Ray" is a collaged composite of features? There is something truly off about that picture that I can't put down to just being underweight.


Funny, but that was my initial impression too. I'm sure there are others who think the same.
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locussolusOffline
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PostPosted: 08-10-2011 21:47    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could it be this isn't a photograph of a real person? I know that sounds ridiculous, as what would the motive for creating a random story such as this be, but I wonder! The whole thing is really odd. As was mentioned, why would this boy not remember anything from his past, including names. He's not presented as being particularly cognitively inhibited in regards to speaking or understanding his surroundings. If he had disappeared when he was a baby it would make sense, but he was already developed at the time he supposedly went into the woods with his father.

Edit: Turns out it's a computer generated image based on a "masked photo" of the boy since German Law prohibits his photo to be distributed given his age.
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mugwump2Offline
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PostPosted: 09-10-2011 13:56    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update on the story...

The mysterious 'Forest Boy' who claimed to have spent years in woods has never lived in the wild, according to German police.
They now suspect the story of 17-year-old Ray' after examination of his clothes and tent revealed no sign they had been used for very long in the open.
The English-speaking teenager, who refuses to have his picture taken to help find his family, appeared at Berlin City Hall early last month.
He said he had lived five years in the forest with his father Ryan after the death of his mother Doreen in a car accident.
He claimed that when his father died suddenly in August he buried him among trees, and then walked for two weeks to Berlin using a compass and map.
But police and social workers began suspecting two weeks ago that his story was bogus and his motives were suspect.
They cannot understand why the only personal details he has revealed are his birthday and first name. He has told investigators he has no memory of his past.
But doctors say he is in in perfect health with no signs of amnesia or mental problems.
Ray has refused to provide a DNA sample despite a Swiss couple coming forward last week to claim he could be there grandson and agreeing to be tested.

Lost in translation: The boy turned up in Berlin alone and saying he had been living rough in the woods
The teen told police he was not interested in establishing his identity, and simply wanted to start a new life after the death of his parents.
He is now in the care of social workers after a legal guardian was appointed to represent his interests.
If it is found that he comes from Switzerland he will be deported back there.
No sign of his father's grave has been found in cursory searches of forests in the Harz Mountains, along the Bavarian-Czech border or in Thuringia.

Wilderness: The teenager's history is shrouded in mystery and he refuses to have his picture taken
A check of police computers in all 16 states of Germany found that no one by the name of Doreen had died in a car crash in the past decade.
Ray is unable to pinpoint the forest where he said he lived, he is also unable to say what nationality he is. Officials originally thought he could be British because he speaks English but only basic German, although they now doubt this.
Interpol has been alerted to check with police forces for missing people in other European countries,
Ray told police: 'I'm all alone. Please help. I just want to get on and make a new life for myself.'
The only image of Ray that has been released under Germany's privacy laws is an artist's impression based on photographs taken by social services

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2047027/Forest-boy-Ray-lived-wild-German-police-doubt-teens-story.html
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MythopoeikaOffline
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PostPosted: 09-10-2011 15:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Mugwump! That explains the picture.
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CultjunkyOffline
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PostPosted: 09-10-2011 17:26    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just supposing that his story is more or less true, that he had spent some time living in isolation with his father, who then died and he has now presented himself to the authorities.

If this were the case, and he was in fact English, the chances are he would have a fairly strong accent, giving a clue as to where he either lived in the UK, or where he may have learned English. Wouldn't his accent have strengthened with only one individual to converse with?
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gncxxOffline
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PostPosted: 09-10-2011 19:09    Post subject: Reply with quote

He could fake an English accent, though, especially if he's fluent in the language.
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eminaOffline
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PostPosted: 10-10-2011 11:08    Post subject: Reply with quote

gncxx wrote:
He could fake an English accent, though, especially if he's fluent in the language.


Highly unlikely, I'm afraid.

I've studied language acquisition and a bit of dialectology, and although I'm no expert, I can shed some light on it. Although children and teenagers adopt accents better than adults, it's almost impossible for them to do it without constant exposure to a native speaking environment.

Accents can be learned by people of all ages, it's true, but even in cases where all trace of their native accent disappears (which are comparitively very, very rare compared to the number of language learners), unless they've spent a fair time in a community with a specific accent, they will have "generic" sounding accents, which will be inconsistent with any regional accent. The speaker needs extensive exposure to vernacular too. It's impossible to get right just from films and tv etc. because the learner will be unaware of the subtleties which differentiate accents and would have to selectively ignore certain people's influence.

This is difficult even for native speakers. For example, an American might struggle to hear the difference between a Yorkshire and a Manchester accent. Supposing then that they practiced hard to learn one of these accents. They would at best be able to fool people from other parts of the english speaking world, but certainly wouldn't fool people from these areas.

Stick a Swiss kid in a room with a TV, the internet and nothing else, and the best they're likely to come up with, is mid-atlantic. Although not impossible, he would need to have spent a significant amount of time in England to get close. We're talking years rather than months here + some practice. Young kids will do it faster, but their accent will change again quickly if they move to another place. Even when it does happen, that's simply a case of genuinely "having" the accent rather than "faking" it.

Interestingly, you might like to check out the story about "Wearside Jack", the hoaxer who sent tapes to the police during the hight of the Yorkshire Ripper murders. Voice analyists were able to analyse his accent and successfully trace him down to one tiny town called Castletown near Sunderland.

This is possible because our accents and dialects are much more than combinations of sounds. They're composed of things called "stereotypes" = the kind of things that people associate with an accent and can mimic, "Markers" = changes in speech or pronunciation which the speaker may control or vary due to differing social situations, awareness of style, register, functions etc. and "indicators" = features of pronunciation variation based on sociolinguistic factors of which even the speaker is unaware.

In short, he'd be doing well to fool a native speaker of British English. He'd be doing exceptionally well, to fool a local with the same accent and would be doing miraculously to fool a boffin. Wink
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PostPosted: 10-10-2011 12:30    Post subject: Reply with quote

gncxx wrote:
He could fake an English accent, though, especially if he's fluent in the language.


Kind of an aside more than additional to the conversation but reminds me of a woman I knew in Germany. She was German and had been married to a Yorkshire man for about twenty years. She spoke fluent English with a Yorkshire accent but with a hint of a German accent as well. Once you got to know her you barely noticed it but at first it was a very odd combination.
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