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amyasleigh Great Old One Joined: 03 Nov 2009 Total posts: 381 Gender: Unknown |
 Posted: 06-04-2012 19:58 Post subject: Hastening the end of rail steam traction? |
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A conspiracy-theory scenario occasionally floated, concerning a hobby-type passion of mine; would be interested in any thoughts / comments. Many people (myself included) are captivated, on a basically “aesthetic” level, by the steam railway locomotive and the sight / sound / smell of it in action. General “accepted wisdom” holds that steam locos are, however, not a very efficient means for haulage – whereby their replacement by more efficient types of rail motive power, when the moment for same arrived technology-wise and otherwise, was inevitable.
Some steam-loco enthusiasts (basically informed and educated folk, i.e. not totally-naïve loonies) have spoken and written in favour of rail steam traction, suggesting that its rapid and often wasteful total replacement on railways worldwide over the past sixty-odd years by electric and diesel motive power, has owed a lot to the action of vested interests; and has often not made much sense. It would be hard to deny that the oil and internal-combustion-vehicle industries have had strong incentives to try to the maximum, to “sell their wares” to the world’s railways, in respect of diesel-powered vehicles, to the detriment of perceivedly archaic steam-powered ditto.
A different aspect of this perceived scenario, sometimes arises. Namely, the suggestion that in the aftermath of World War II; with the world’s rapid dividing between the Western and Communist blocs, those in charge in the West, put on pressure for – above all else in Western Europe – the railways to maximise and intensify the change from steam traction to more modern motive power, especially diesel. Reason being: in Western Europe the work-forces of the coal-mining industry, and the railways, had long been strongly given to radical / socialist / Communist political views. With the Cold War having arisen: it was seen as a way to counter the coal-miners / railwaymen, liable to obey instructions from Moscow to withhold their labour to make things difficult for their own countries (the two industries closely linked, with the railways needing coal to fire their steam locos); by pushing politically, strongly, for the abolition of steam traction as soon as possible on the railways of Western Europe (including Britain), so as to if possible nullify the threat of the countries concerned, being held to ransom as described.
“Whatever”; steam in genuine commercial service has all but vanished from the world. Would just be interested to know – if can be known – whether there’s any truth in the “Cold War connection” thing as above; or whether it’s nonsense dreamed up by wishful-thinking puffer-nutters. |
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| Cavynaut Skoumed!
Usually tired. Joined: 10 Apr 2003 Total posts: 1976 Location: Crouch Wailing. UK. Age: 56 Gender: Male |
| Posted: 07-04-2012 02:09 Post subject: |
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I think it was more that the railways wanted to be perceived as modern in the face of competition from private transport. The acceleration in the withdrawal of steam in the late 1950's and early 1960's coincides neatly with the consumer boom and Wilson's 'White heat of technology'.
Must agree that it was very wasteful though...the 9F's were expected to last until the early 80's as far as I recall. And the rush to dieselisation meant that much money was wasted on untried and badly designed locomotives such as the Class 28, the Class 22/29.
Edit: There was also a brief flirtation with using oil to fire steam locomotives just after the war when coal was in short supply. That came to nothing either. No, I think that steam was simply seen as an out dated technology which had no place in the modern world.....sadly.  |
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| Cavynaut Skoumed!
Usually tired. Joined: 10 Apr 2003 Total posts: 1976 Location: Crouch Wailing. UK. Age: 56 Gender: Male |
| Posted: 07-04-2012 02:23 Post subject: |
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Just remembered this..
The 1950's and 60's were also a time of almost full employment, and the steam railway was very labour intensive. British Railways found it hard to attract staff to work in a very dirty industry, and the rapid dieselisation should be seen in that context as well. Do you remember the saying that drivers had?
"All I want is a new Type 2,
Derby built and painted blue." |
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| WierdExeter Grey Joined: 09 Jan 2012 Total posts: 20 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 08-04-2012 09:51 Post subject: |
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In the early 1950's, the Government was pushing through the Clean Air Act that would see the introduction of smokeless fuel zones in all British cities.
This came about as a result of the infamous smogs i.e. the Great Smog of 1952, which cost many lives.
The Act was passed in 1956, but didn't tackle the thousands of coal-burning steam locomotives belching smoke into city skies. The huge sheds which serviced these locos were all situated in built-up areas, not to mention the freight yards etc.
Today, we can be nostalgic about a lovingly restored heritage steam loco chuffing through the countryside, but, as already stated above, they were dirty, oily things.
Also. road coach competition was eating into rail passenger traffic, especially amongst the female demographic. This was a direct result of the 'smuts' of soot that would get drawn into passenger compartments during journeys, landing on clothes and hair.
Finally, the US was pushing ahead with diesel power. Let's face it, whatever America does, we follow. |
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| amyasleigh Great Old One Joined: 03 Nov 2009 Total posts: 381 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 08-04-2012 11:00 Post subject: |
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I don't know how to multi-quote: making shift to do replies as best can, not in the smoothest, most economical way possible.
| Cavynaut wrote: |
Must agree that it was very wasteful though...the 9F's were expected to last until the early 80's as far as I recall. |
Indeed, the incredible wastefulness of the process, 1950s to late 1960s. No continental Western European country went on building steam for itrs public railways, for anything like so long as Britain did. Expectation of at least some "new-build" lasting till the 80s: I do gather that steam would indeed have lasted longer, had it not been for the line closures en masse, mid-1960s onward, basically in line with the Beeching Report's recommendations. These moves were not foreseen during BR's building-steam-new programme -- there came to be, rather rapidly, far less mileage needing motive power (of any kind) to work it.
| Quote: | | Edit: There was also a brief flirtation with using oil to fire steam locomotives just after the war when coal was in short supply. That came to nothing either. No, I think that steam was simply seen as an out dated technology which had no place in the modern world.....sadly. |
In some parts of the world, oil-firing was prolongedly used for some or all of their steam loco fleets -- but nowhere did that save steam up to anywhere near the present day.
Cavynaut also writes: "The 1950's and '60's were also a time of almost full employment, and the steam railway was very labour intensive. British Railways found it hard to attract staff to work in a very dirty industry..."
Yes, the sheer dirtiiness, and hard physical work, not for spectacularly high pay -- difficulty of getting staff: that played a part in the decline of steam, not only in Britain. |
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| amyasleigh Great Old One Joined: 03 Nov 2009 Total posts: 381 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 08-04-2012 11:10 Post subject: |
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| WierdExeter wrote: |
Today, we can be nostalgic about a lovingly restored heritage steam loco chuffing through the countryside, but, as already stated above, they were dirty, oily things. |
One has to concur: coal-burning steam locos, as well as being an inefficient way of turning fossil fuel into traction, are filthy -- especially en masse.
| Quote: | | Also. road coach competition was eating into rail passenger traffic, especially amongst the female demographic. This was a direct result of the 'smuts' of soot that would get drawn into passenger compartments during journeys, landing on clothes and hair. |
I recall reading a comment from 1950, by a British female author with a sharp eye on the contemporary scene -- I'm pretty sure it was Nancy Mitford -- to the effect that even as early as 1950, Britain's railways were regarded as in a poor state, and that enormous numbers of long-distance travellers had deserted them in favour of road coaches.
Re this, from quite that long ago, I'm inclined to think -- a point of view, but maybe overstated, and from a biased source: I see Nancy as liable to have been extremely contemptuous of trainspotters of any age, and of anything that they might like. |
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| amyasleigh Great Old One Joined: 03 Nov 2009 Total posts: 381 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 09-04-2012 01:25 Post subject: |
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More on these matters, generated by Cavynaut's thoughts here:
| Cavynaut wrote: |
The 1950's and 60's were also a time of almost full employment, and the steam railway was very labour intensive. British Railways found it hard to attract staff to work in a very dirty industry, and the rapid dieselisation should be seen in that context as well. |
A part of the world where this factor applied in an idiosyncratic way, was South Africa. That country long retained steam traction in strength on its railways, in a large measure because of its circumstances in the apartheid era. South Africa having effectively no oil, and enormous reserves of coal, and a potentially enormous non-costly labour force; with trade with much of the rest of the world hampered by the country’s “pariah” status, it made sense to hold on to coal-burning steam on the railways, for longer than would likely have happened, in the absence of this particular political factor.
There was an individual twist to the South African steam traction scene. The system that long prevailed there, endeavoured to protect the less-educated-and-sophisticated elements of the white population, by strictly reserving certain areas of employment, for whites. Work on the railways, was such an area: blacks were allowed into the lowliest of railway jobs, but that was all. So on the South African steam scene, the “grunt work” of cleaning-out, cleaning-up, and replenishing, locos, was basically done by blacks; who could never graduate to becoming footplate crew – that was reserved strictly for whites. Around the 1970s / earlier 80s, difficulties for the railways arose on this front: not enough white guys could be found, willing to work as steam loco firemen – dirty, backbreaking labour, not outstandingly well-paid, many easier employment opportunities. Plenty of blacks, desperate for any kind of work, would have been eager to do this sort; but the political / ideological consideration forbade it.
It came to be, that any white male who showed up and was ready to work as a fireman, was eagerly grabbed by the South African Railways. In this era, some British steam-railway enthusiasts, unhappy at steam having ended in their own country, emigrated to South Africa with the object of working as steam loco firemen – they were “snapped up”, even if they proved not hugely good at the job. (A keen but incompetent enthusiast was at any rate, no worse than an apathetic local deadbeat.) Drift generally got, is that some of these guys had ethical objections to the apartheid system, but “held their noses” and emigrated anyway: the prospect of being welcomed, to do their dream job, was just too sweet. I had occasional, fleeting temptations to embarking on this adventure myself, but took the thing no further. With me, not ethical / ideological objections; just timidity, and perception of many ways in which it could go horribly wrong, and awareness that it’s a kind of work for which (daydreams notwithstanding) I have zero aptitude.
All that stuff is over now, anyway. Ultimately – though more slowly than in most countries – South African Railways fell into line with the worldwide trend, and phased steam out in favour of diesel, and ever-increasing electrification. It finished there in commercial service in the early 1990s – pretty well coinciding with the end of apartheid; but not, in the main, because of that development – just, the overwhelming “way of the world” with this matter. |
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rynner2 What a Cad!
Great Old One Joined: 13 Dec 2008 Total posts: 21362 Location: Under the moon Gender: Male |
| Posted: 09-04-2012 08:05 Post subject: |
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| amyasleigh wrote: | | No continental Western European country went on building steam for itrs public railways, for anything like so long as Britain did. |
When I lived in Brightlingsea (Essex) in the 1980s, there was a pub nearby called the Evening Star, after the last steam loco built in Britain.
There was a branch line to Brightlingsea from 1866 to 1964, which was another Beeching casualty. Wiki gives details at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brightlingsea_railway_station
This mentions the Railway public house and micro-brewery, but not the Evening Star. Maybe it was renamed? *
There's also a page on the loco:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evening_Star_(locomotive)
* No: a google search reveals the Evening Star is "Now known as the Smugglers Inn" (presumably it was only the Evening Star from the 60s, when the loco was built). That info came via this website, which many people here might find interesting in its own right:
http://deadpubs.co.uk/
Last edited by rynner2 on 09-05-2013 16:51; edited 1 time in total |
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| amyasleigh Great Old One Joined: 03 Nov 2009 Total posts: 381 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 09-04-2012 11:13 Post subject: |
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I just missed being able to travel on the Brightlingsea branch, damn it. It closed in June 1964, if I remember rightly -- early summer, anyway. In August that year, I spent a week travelling widely on BR's Eastern Region, on an unlimited-travel "railrover" ticket -- just a couple of months too late for Brightlingsea.
The loco "Evening Star" (class 9F 2-10-0, number 92220) ran for a mere five years in commercial service. Even knowing all the reasons and attendant circumstances -- one has to feel about the situation, "that wasn't very clever". At least the locomotive has been preserved. |
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| jacolantern what candle?
Joined: 04 Jan 2012 Total posts: 131 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 09-04-2012 11:49 Post subject: |
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I really missed the whole steam train era due to being a mere whippersnapper, but near to where i live is a centre run by volunteers that allows you to go into a preserved station, buy a ticket and travel on a steam train. This i did last summer with the girls and it was wonderful-albeit far too short.
Having travelled on modern trains a bit, to then compare that with the experience of this journey which was over all too soon, i understand the whole steam train bug that keeps these people volunteering their time and probably money aswell to try and keep this going.
Talking to a man after who was working in one of the maintainance sheds he said that it wasn't lack of interest that was making it ever harder to keep going, but reams of legislation that they constantly have to deal with.
S'funny-makes me all nostalgic for something i never experienced. |
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| rynner2 What a Cad!
Great Old One Joined: 13 Dec 2008 Total posts: 21362 Location: Under the moon Gender: Male |
| Posted: 09-04-2012 11:59 Post subject: |
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Another factoid about the Brightlingsea line is that it's demise "was supposedly prompted by the high costs of maintaining the railway swing bridge over Alresford Creek, which was necessary to allow boat traffic to the many sand and gravel pits in the area".
My frequent visits to Hayle to watch the new bridge being built also takes me to the old iron swing bridge there.
http://www.imagesofengland.org.uk/Details/default.aspx?pid=2&id=70175
It carried a roadway, and a single track railway which descended from the main line just west of Hayle station, and went out to North Quay. The railway part of the bridge is now a footpath. I took many of my photos of the new bridge building (which is taking place just to the right of the iron bridge) from this footpath.
When the new bridge is complete, I hear that the swing bridge will be removed and sent away for renovation work, as it is a listed National Monument.
I was also interested in the references to 'the canal' and the 'lock' in the link given above, as I'd assumed that Copperhouse Creek had always been tidal. So that's something new I've learned! (A photographer in Falmouth has a photo of a sailing regatta in Copperhouse Creek, in about 1947, but I think it's probably too shallow for that nowadays, even for dinghies at high tide.)
More on the spur line shortly. |
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| rynner2 What a Cad!
Great Old One Joined: 13 Dec 2008 Total posts: 21362 Location: Under the moon Gender: Male |
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| amyasleigh Great Old One Joined: 03 Nov 2009 Total posts: 381 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 09-04-2012 13:50 Post subject: |
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jacolantern, I find your post heartening. I (born 1948) am from the last generation that – in childhood – knew steam on Britain’s railways as the norm, and in my case fell in love with it. Some railway enthusiasts of my vintage, opine that when our generation dies – or becomes too old and feeble to do practical work – there will be a dreadful dearth of steam-lovers, to carry on as volunteers on preserved steam railways (younger generations not having known the thing for real, thus not having got the bug) – whence the end seen, for most if not all preserved steam railways.
I’ve always felt that “take”, to be too pessimistic – no doubt there are getting to be fewer steam devotees, but “nowhere is it written” that save in very exceptional cases, you had to have known it in its “everyday” form, for it to mean anything to you – your post, j/o/l, reinforces my view. Bureaucratic / legislative nonsense, can be resisted – acute lack of personnel, is a more fundamental problem.
I’ve done little, myself, for steam preservation – combination of being a lazy so-and-so, and “fingers all thumbs”, and fonder of armchair engagement, as opposed to front-line ditto; I do support with an annual subscription, a couple of preservation societies. Kudos from me, though, to all who are active in the preservation movement. |
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| amyasleigh Great Old One Joined: 03 Nov 2009 Total posts: 381 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 09-04-2012 14:05 Post subject: |
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rynner2 -- interesting stuff, thanks. Find self a little bit shamefaced re the Hayle Wharf / Quay branch. I did in 1971, a tour in the West Country with some railfan friends, covering various rail lines not yet travelled by us. The tour included a few journeys over freight-only lines (which could be arranged with the relevant division of British Railways, for a fee -- you travelled in the brake van of the goods train).
I was never a red-hot "cover-every-possible-inch-of-the-system geek" (taking this last word as complimentary, not contemptuous) -- if line had never had a passenger service, I usually wasn't interested. In '71, I opted out of the Hayle Wharf branch goods (and the fee for travelling on it), when the rest of the party enthusiastically rode on said train. The impassioned "line-bashers" will just have to call me "Mr. Lukewarm" and spew me out of their mouths... |
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| rynner2 What a Cad!
Great Old One Joined: 13 Dec 2008 Total posts: 21362 Location: Under the moon Gender: Male |
| Posted: 09-04-2012 14:35 Post subject: |
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There's an apparently thriving group restoring part of the old Helston branch line:
http://www.helstonrailway.co.uk/
Most of the route of the line can still be traced on the OS map. It seems to have branched off from the Penzance line a few miles west of Camborne.
One branch line that survived the Beeching era is the Truro-Falmouth one. It just runs one or two-coach deisel passenger trains, but recently it's been upgraded: the line has been doubled at Penryn to allow trains to pass each other, so the service is now much more frequent. But it would be great to see steam trains puffing across the various viaducts! |
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