| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Hachiminh Liberal Militant
Yeti Joined: 03 Feb 2012 Total posts: 55 Gender: Unknown |
 Posted: 04-11-2012 01:44 Post subject: The term 'supernatural' applied to UFO's |
 |
|
|
I know this is pedantic, but I don't agree with the use of the term 'supernatural' being applied to UFO's, and for that matter otherareas of fortean interest. The implication being that extraterrestrial intelligence is somehow contrary to scientific reasoning. In fact most scientists seem to agree, that given the mutlitude of stars and planets the odds are greatly in favour of life on other planets, including intelligent and advanced civilisations. Of course for those beings to travel here, unless they startewd their journey a very logn time ago and set up some sort of base in our solar system, they would have had to travel faster than the speed of light, something previously thought impossible by mainstream science. In fact science has no definite proof that UFO's do not exist (and are not craft piloted by axtraterrestrial lifeforms) unless you accept some very dubious 'explanations' for Unidentified Aerial Phenomena, UFO's etc. On the flipside of course there are UFO reports that would appear to contradict scientific reasoning, at least current scientific reasoning..
The term 'paranormal' is more suitable, I think most would agree a UFO is out of the ordinary, but still UFO's are categorised with phenomena that defy conventional understanding of science. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
| ramonmercado Psycho Punk
Joined: 19 Aug 2003 Total posts: 17657 Location: Dublin Gender: Male |
| Posted: 04-11-2012 02:07 Post subject: |
|
|
|
Paranormal may be more appropriate but supernatural is perhaps used to describe sightings by people who in previous eras would have seen demons, goblins oe leprechauns.
Don't mean to come across too sceptical (I want to believe) but theres too much interference caused by people who see goblins in space suits, it drowns out any real signal. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| Hachiminh Liberal Militant
Yeti Joined: 03 Feb 2012 Total posts: 55 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 04-11-2012 02:16 Post subject: |
|
|
|
| ramonmercado wrote: | Paranormal may be more appropriate but supernatural is perhaps used to describe sightings by people who in previous eras would have seen demons, goblins oe leprechauns.
Don't mean to come across too sceptical (I want to believe) but theres too much interference caused by people who see goblins in space suits, it drowns out any real signal. |
I think the reasonable position is to be sceptical, ie to not blindly believe whatever people say. I think even some of the firmest believers here would be dubious about people who claim to be passing on messages to humanity etc, especially when they seem to be creating some sort of cult around themselves, or portraying themselves as a prophet or chosen one of some sort. On the flipside though there's the absolute disbeliever, no matter what evidence is presented they will regard it as a hoax, mass hysteria/ hallucination and other things that frankly stretch the bounds of possibility as much as advanced military craft or even alien visitors. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| stuneville Administrator
Joined: 09 Mar 2002 Total posts: 10190 Location: FTMB HQ Age: 46 Gender: Male |
| Posted: 04-11-2012 11:13 Post subject: Re: The term 'supernatural' applied to UFO's |
|
|
|
| Hachiminh wrote: | | I know this is pedantic, but I don't agree with the use of the term 'supernatural' being applied to UFO's, and for that matter otherareas of fortean interest. .. |
In one resepct I think you're preaching to the choir, here, as it's not really a description most people of a Fortean persuasion would give to them. To many without the sort of detailed interest in the field we have, anything anomalous immediately gets dubbed "supernatural", but that word is merely a convenient portmanteau that encompasses the non-mundane in its entirety.
Also worth bearing in mind that to many "UFO" is synonymous with "aliens". To the majority of Forteans UFO means something up in the air that you can't identify, and again most will happily accept it if someone else can show it was a comet or the 8.55 EasyJet flight from Malaga or a Perseid or even a Chinese Lantern. However, in the absence of a readily demonstrable explanation, we can reserve the right to remain open-minded, which includes all manner of explanations including but not limited to the mundane. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| Hachiminh Liberal Militant
Yeti Joined: 03 Feb 2012 Total posts: 55 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 05-11-2012 00:14 Post subject: Re: The term 'supernatural' applied to UFO's |
|
|
|
| stuneville wrote: | | Hachiminh wrote: | | I know this is pedantic, but I don't agree with the use of the term 'supernatural' being applied to UFO's, and for that matter otherareas of fortean interest. .. |
In one resepct I think you're preaching to the choir, here, as it's not really a description most people of a Fortean persuasion would give to them. To many without the sort of detailed interest in the field we have, anything anomalous immediately gets dubbed "supernatural", but that word is merely a convenient portmanteau that encompasses the non-mundane in its entirety.
Also worth bearing in mind that to many "UFO" is synonymous with "aliens". To the majority of Forteans UFO means something up in the air that you can't identify, and again most will happily accept it if someone else can show it was a comet or the 8.55 EasyJet flight from Malaga or a Perseid or even a Chinese Lantern. However, in the absence of a readily demonstrable explanation, we can reserve the right to remain open-minded, which includes all manner of explanations including but not limited to the mundane. |
Yes its basically a mixed bag of the unexplained or unproven. I don't say this out of snobbery against other forms of forteana, I have an interest and a belief in many other fields of the paranormal (again for lack of a better phrase) I just hate to see it used by hardline sceptics to dismiss it as 'hocus pocus'. I'm sure yeti followers, for example, would feel the same way about being lumped together with skywatchers. Its not that either field is illegitimate as such, just that their being lumped together could be construed as a dismissal. So someone who might potentially be open minded to one and not the other, categorising them together would bias them against the other.
My general viewpoint is to take as scientific an approach as possible. As much as possible we should categorise and subcategorise paranormal phenomena, and treat each as a seperate field. Even without evidence we can look at statistics and patterns, meta analysis, and theories and papers much like any other field of study, particularly the social sciences or anthropological/ sociological studies, or even as a specialist historical study.
The UFO/ Alien thing is very true, I think however 'we' too are sometimes equally guilty of overextrapolation. For instance there are those whose enthusiasm in their theories might sound to the outsider like a paranoid delusion, not to mention all sorts of agendas contradicting each other. What we lack is a centralised focus, there is merely a whole range of individuals and groups competing in their theories. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| jimv1 Great Old One Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Total posts: 2645 Gender: Male |
| Posted: 08-11-2012 23:31 Post subject: Re: The term 'supernatural' applied to UFO's |
|
|
|
| Hachiminh wrote: |
What we lack is a centralised focus.... |
I regard that a blessing to be honest. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| Hachiminh Liberal Militant
Yeti Joined: 03 Feb 2012 Total posts: 55 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 14-11-2012 01:07 Post subject: Re: The term 'supernatural' applied to UFO's |
|
|
|
| jimv1 wrote: | | Hachiminh wrote: |
What we lack is a centralised focus.... |
I regard that a blessing to be honest. |
I don't mean a supreme council ruling over ufology, I mean a general consensus and an attempt to weed out obvious hoaxes, perhaps even a concerted effort to document and record events (rather than various groups or individuals acting independently). But beyond that I think ufology has to give up the search for evidence and perhaps shift its focus to making contact. Lets face it if an alien craft landed on the whitehouse lawn and aliens got out and shook hands with the president, the uber-sceptics and officials would still claim it to be a hoax, or reflections on clouds or whatever. So lets just assume we have the evidence required for absolute irrefutable proof, whats next? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| eburacum Papo-Furado
Great Old One Joined: 26 Aug 2005 Total posts: 1565 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 23-11-2012 11:34 Post subject: |
|
|
|
The reality is that the UFO phenomenon almost certainly has nothing to do with extraterrestrials, but instead has its roots in the fallibility of human perception and psychology; so, it is just the same as most of the other paranormal fields in many ways.
There is a very remote possibility that some of the observations might have a nut-and-bolts ET explanation. But even if this were the case the vast majority of sightings are explained by human factors, and it seems to me that the study of human strangeness is the most important part of Fortean studies. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| eburacum Papo-Furado
Great Old One Joined: 26 Aug 2005 Total posts: 1565 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 23-11-2012 11:58 Post subject: |
|
|
|
A better example of this might be the association of alien big cats with paranormal phenomena; since alien big cats sometimes really do exist, and have been captured
see
Felicity the puma for an example,
then why are sightings of out-of-place animals lumped in with the paranormal? The answer is that for more than 99% of the time, these sightings are actually misidentification of normal-sized cats, labradors and so on. This is the result of human psychology and of misperception, and is a fascinating field of study in itself.
The study of out-of-place animals has the added bonus that some of them (a very, very small number) are actually true. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| gncxx King-Size Canary
Great Old One Joined: 25 Aug 2001 Total posts: 13303 Location: Eh? Gender: Male |
| Posted: 23-11-2012 19:26 Post subject: |
|
|
|
| It's worth pointing out that some ABC tales double as high strangeness stories as well (see occasional FT articles). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| oldrover Great Old One Joined: 18 Oct 2009 Total posts: 2106 Location: Wales Gender: Male |
| Posted: 23-11-2012 22:09 Post subject: |
|
|
|
| eburacum wrote: |
why are sightings of out-of-place animals lumped in with the paranormal? |
I've never been aware of anyone doing this to be honest. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| eburacum Papo-Furado
Great Old One Joined: 26 Aug 2005 Total posts: 1565 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 23-11-2012 23:16 Post subject: |
|
|
|
We did have a thread complaining about people doing this recently, but sine the reorganisation I can't find it. However out-of-place animal sightings have a lot in common with paranormal events, since most of the sightings are mistaken or caused by psychological phenomena (such as hoaxing).
The same effect applies to cryptids; most cryptid sightings are mistaken, or are actual hoaxes, but a very small number are real. Every decade we discover new animals of all kinds, including quite large ones, so cryptids exist too. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| oldrover Great Old One Joined: 18 Oct 2009 Total posts: 2106 Location: Wales Gender: Male |
| Posted: 24-11-2012 11:55 Post subject: |
|
|
|
| I'm sorry I missed that thread, but yes I'd agree with all that you say there, except I'm not sure I'd class any of the new discoveries as cryptids. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| jimv1 Great Old One Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Total posts: 2645 Gender: Male |
| Posted: 24-11-2012 16:30 Post subject: Re: The term 'supernatural' applied to UFO's |
|
|
|
| Hachiminh wrote: |
But beyond that I think ufology has to give up the search for evidence and perhaps shift its focus to making contact. |
But as we're continually saying here, UFOs need not necessarily be of another world or indeed technological machines guided by alien intelligence at all. I'm rather fond of recommending the excellent 'Passport to Magonia' by Jacques Vallee (It's a rare book but I put a PDF link to it on this site some time ago) which posits that there's nothing in Ufology that hasn't already been described in pixie and fairy lore throughout the generations. So do we persuade the world's governments to spend tiime opening a communication link to The Little People?
Of course it's not pixies or fairies or anything of the sort. It's Angels...or maybe Cloudbeasts that need to be harpooned for closer examination.
What I'm saying is that the phenomenon shifts as our perception changes from the supernatural angels, through pixies and aliens to the more recent elemental - like invisible cloudbeasts - which leads me to think the answer to the vast majority of sightings lies more in the inner space of the mind than the outer reaches of the universe. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| eburacum Papo-Furado
Great Old One Joined: 26 Aug 2005 Total posts: 1565 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 24-11-2012 19:16 Post subject: |
|
|
|
| Conan Doyle probably would have been very pleased if the gov't had diverted funds towards pixie searches. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
