Forums

 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages 
Sasquatch DNA analysis
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Fortean Times Message Board Forum Index -> Cryptozoology - manbeasts and mystery apes
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
lordmongroveOffline
Great Old One
Joined: 30 May 2009
Total posts: 1029
Location: Exeter
Age: 44
Gender: Male
PostPosted: 26-11-2012 01:06    Post subject: Sasquatch DNA analysis Reply with quote

http://frontiersofzoology.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/melba-ketchams-official-announcement.html

Sasquatch DNA analysis results.
Back to top
View user's profile 
lordmongroveOffline
Great Old One
Joined: 30 May 2009
Total posts: 1029
Location: Exeter
Age: 44
Gender: Male
PostPosted: 26-11-2012 01:07    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a beliver in Sasquatch but somehow this feels dodgy has hell to me.
Back to top
View user's profile 
lkb3rdOffline
Great Old One
Joined: 19 Jul 2004
Total posts: 301
Location: CT. USA
Gender: Male
PostPosted: 26-11-2012 02:17    Post subject: Reply with quote

She has a history of playing this up, but refusing to release additional - or any real information. I'm with you, I'll believe it if and when the full study is public.
Back to top
View user's profile 
lordmongroveOffline
Great Old One
Joined: 30 May 2009
Total posts: 1029
Location: Exeter
Age: 44
Gender: Male
PostPosted: 26-11-2012 03:44    Post subject: Reply with quote

I for one am not buying the modern human / hominid idea for the creation of a whole species.
I'm also wondering what has happened to the Russian data. No further word on it.
Back to top
View user's profile 
graylien
Great Old One
Location: Norwich - home of the Puppet Man!
Age: 43
Gender: Male
PostPosted: 26-11-2012 06:32    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I dare say the good doctor's findings will be published in the relevant scientific journals, rigorously peer-reviewed by the scientific community, and ultimately accepted as a revolutionary, yet incontrovertibly sound, addition to our understanding of the evolutionary process.

(Either that, or it will just turn out to be the usual tedious, unsubstantiated cryptozoological bullshit..)
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website 
stunevilleOffline
Admin
Joined: 09 Mar 2002
Total posts: 10573
Location: FTMB HQ
Age: 47
Gender: Male
PostPosted: 26-11-2012 06:58    Post subject: Reply with quote

lordmongrove wrote:
I for one am not buying the modern human / hominid idea for the creation of a whole species.


Cryptomundo has a longish thread with various pro and con arguments, here.

Extracts of two posts that stand out to me:
Quote:
semillama:

Here’s the giant red flag about all this. Anyone who’s taken a high school biology class that taught basic genetics should spot it. For Sasquatch to have purely human mtDNA, and for that to result from a hybridization event 15,000 years ago, then the remaining female breeding population for the entire species must have been completely wiped out, leaving ONLY the females from the hybridization event. This would suggest a catastrophic bottleneck that may have left only one group of breeding creatures, with ONLY females with the human mtDNA. This population would then have to make its way over to North America and populate the continent after the retreat of the glaciers. How much more likely is that the sample was contaminated with human mtDNA, perhaps from Melba Ketchum herself?

Another issue is that for a “hybridization” to take like this, the male has to come from an undefined member of the Homo genus. But the physical characteristics described for Sasquatch, especially the foot anatomy, strongly suggest to me that the genus is not Homo, but another type of hominin or even a primate that independently evolved bipedalism...

..As I’ve said before, the results must be duplicated at another, independent laboratory for any DNA analyses to hold water when attempting to provide evidence for a controversial species. The whole Ketchum affair is just too problematic to take at face value.


on the flip side, as to why in 15,000 years the species may have changed so much:
Quote:
CDC:

We are years away from understanding, but this paper if, if it passes peer review, will take a huge step into answering the questions in many directions.

Dr Ketchums findings actually make sense.

There were many Genus-Homo, some I am sure have not been found as yet.

Homo heidelbergensis and Homo neanderthalensis are closely related to each other and have been considered subspecies of Homo sapiens. Both lived in Europe and Asia.

If remnant populations of these Genus Homo migrated east following the same path Homo sapiens used, it is conceivable that they bred with those same Homo sapiens

It would prove some Native American stories as fact, tribes of Giant Forest People, that were to be avoided and respected.

If a species is dying out and mates cannot be found, the only option is to seek other similar species to breed with…it is simply nature’s driving force to continue a species.

In Florida now, python species are breeding amongst each other as released pet pythons of different breeds are finding that the only other options than extinction. The result is mixed breed giant snakes…Rock python + Indian Python = a giant python

Mixed breeds often create larger offspring, example tiger and lion mix

A species of Homo on the verge of extinction, finds Homo sapiens to breed with and the species lives on. The very first Americans here were all the were available to breed with and descendants of that breeding are what may be the “species” we call Bigfoot.


The latter makes sense to me, certainly.

What isn't yet clear is whether these finding have actually been peer-reviewed or not. Some say they have, others that they haven't - and it's kind of crucial. I think we're just going to have to wait for Ketchum's full report to be published.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail 
stunevilleOffline
Admin
Joined: 09 Mar 2002
Total posts: 10573
Location: FTMB HQ
Age: 47
Gender: Male
PostPosted: 26-11-2012 06:58    Post subject: Reply with quote

lordmongrove wrote:
I'm also wondering what has happened to the Russian data. No further word on it.

Also on Cryptomundo, there's some interesting stuff on that from Igor Burtsev himself, who "broke" the findings, commenting on his motives here:
Quote:
I have received a question:

I have one question, what motivated you to share what you did today?
… and that you simply didn’t understand that you weren’t supposed to release the information until the American Journal first published the results.

I’m answering.

We waited a couple of years the scientific publication by Dr. Melba Ketchum. But scientific magazines refuse to publish her manuscript which deserves to be published. And I want to remind some facts of the destiny of scolars in our field.

Before the First World War our zoologist Vitaly Khahlov described the creature, named it Primihomo asiaticus. He send his scientific peport very circumstantial, thorough to the Russian Academy of Sciences. And what? The report was put into the box, and had stayed there till 1959, about half of century. Until Dr. Porshnev found it and published…

Dr. Porshnev himself had written a monograph “The present State of the Question of Relict Hominoids”. It was issued in 1963 by the Academy of Sciences in some 180 copies only, for a special use. Only after a half of century (again!) it was publishe 1n 2012 in 2500 copies…

In 1960s Mongolian Academician Rinchen had sent the skull of supposed almas to Poland, becaus our anthropologists refused to study it. Poland’s anthropologist made a sculptural portrait of that creature, Rinchen called it Homo sapiens almas in 1960s. But – it has been forgotten till last years… Again half a century!

I don’t want the new discovery (not the first one, but the next one) to wait for another half a century to be recognized by haughty official scientific establishment!

That is why I broke the tradition, did not let this acheavement to wayt for next half a century to be recognized. No matter of the publication in the scientific magazine, people should know NOW, what bigfoot/sasquatch is.

As I know, one third of population of the USA believe in exuiosting of these creatures. And they deserve to know WHAT THEY ARE.


Further, later on that thread, there's a good counter point to semillama's comment I cited in my previous post, re the mitochondrial DNA issues:
Quote:

JE_McKellar

The interesting result here is how she compared the samples to human mitochondrial DNA, and came up with a match, and a recent match at that. “Hybrid” might sounds too sensational for my tastes, but basically it means that we’re talking about a population of hominins that interbred with human (females) about 12k years ago. That means that the original Sasquatch was a close cousin of modern humans, maybe a derived Homo erectus. This original population, though, suffered some sort of bottleneck or catastrophe right around the onset of the Holocene, right when many other large mammals were suffering catastrophic population declines. The survivors, though, interbred with human women and their descendents grew and spread into the modern Sasquatch population.

Old World Sasquatch/Almas/Yeti populations might have gone through a similar bottleneck and interbreeding with modern humans, or they might have been a single population of Sasquatch that spread out from the Bering land bridge. DNA testing of Eurasian samples should help us figure that out, so I assume that Burtsev is eager to get funding for that next stage of the project, and grew impatient with the delays from the scientific press.

Of course, Melba’s findings need to be replicated, but further testing needs to be done comparing the Sasquatch DNA with Neandertal and Denisovan samples, and the experts need to start looking for known human gene variants within the Sasquatch pool. In short, even if this report about Melba’s work proves true, it’s only the first step in a very long process.


So, yeah - exciting for those who either believe or are on the fence, but for those who actively don't there's still no reason to change their minds.

We've a long way to go before this is played out.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail 
oldroverOffline
Great Old One
Joined: 18 Oct 2009
Total posts: 2336
Location: Wales
Gender: Male
PostPosted: 26-11-2012 13:01    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://doubtfulnews.com/2012/11/melba-ketchum-announces-bigfoot-dna-results-without-the-data/

I'm getting a bit disillusioned with the above website, I get the impression I'm being talked down to when I read it too often these days but, the comments section on the link are very telling.

Graylien can I go for box B please.
Back to top
View user's profile 
lordmongroveOffline
Great Old One
Joined: 30 May 2009
Total posts: 1029
Location: Exeter
Age: 44
Gender: Male
PostPosted: 26-11-2012 13:16    Post subject: Reply with quote

What semillama said is correct. It is utter hogwash. A hybrid species would show more human features.
I am interested in the Mongolian almas sent o Poland in the 60s. I've never heard of that one. Any one know anything.
Back to top
View user's profile 
stunevilleOffline
Admin
Joined: 09 Mar 2002
Total posts: 10573
Location: FTMB HQ
Age: 47
Gender: Male
PostPosted: 26-11-2012 13:25    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd heard whisperings, but that's the first mainstream voice I've heard saying it out loud. As you know, there have long been rumours that the Soviet authorities in particular knew far more about Almasty than they ever let on.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail 
lordmongroveOffline
Great Old One
Joined: 30 May 2009
Total posts: 1029
Location: Exeter
Age: 44
Gender: Male
PostPosted: 26-11-2012 13:31    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would not surprise me in the least. I'd love to know were that skull is now!
Back to top
View user's profile 
lordmongroveOffline
Great Old One
Joined: 30 May 2009
Total posts: 1029
Location: Exeter
Age: 44
Gender: Male
PostPosted: 30-11-2012 14:46    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.click2houston.com/news/Is-Bigfoot-part-human/-/1735978/17565382/-/fs2urd/-/index.html

Interview. Still not buying it though.
Back to top
View user's profile 
oldroverOffline
Great Old One
Joined: 18 Oct 2009
Total posts: 2336
Location: Wales
Gender: Male
PostPosted: 30-11-2012 17:23    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"We ran them against the profiles of the submitters and the lab personnel so we knew that we had pure samples."


What about the profiles of the blueberry bagel bakers?
Back to top
View user's profile 
dreenessOffline
Teen Titans Forum TGNMemory
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Total posts: 1201
Location: Teen Titans Message Board TGNMemory
Gender: Unknown
PostPosted: 09-12-2012 21:22    Post subject: Reply with quote

From this link:

link


Quote:
Thursday, November 29, 2012

Dr. Jeff Meldrum Responds to Melba Ketchum's TV Interview

Posted by Guy Edwards


"Please don't get me wrong. I truly hope she has the brass ring. I want very much for her study to be legitimate and significant." --Dr. Jeff Meldrum on the Dr. Melba Ketchum Bigfoot DNA study

Dr. Jeff Meldrum is the highest profile scientist and academic when it comes to Bigfoot research, he is an Associate Professor of Anatomy and Anthropology and Adjunct Associate Professor of the Department of Anthropology at Idaho State University. His book, a companion to the Documentary of the same name, "Sasquatch Legend meets Science," is a must have in any serious bigfooters library.

Believers and skeptics alike respect Dr. Meldrum's approach to the Bigfoot phenomena. Notable skeptic Brian Dunning has been quoted as saying, "The work of responsible scientists like Dr. Meldrum is exactly what true skeptics should be asking the Bigfoot community for, not criticizing him for it."

Due to his credentials and popularity Dr. Meldrum has been showcased on maultiple networks including NatGeo, History Channel, and the Discovery Channel, this also includes TV shows including Monster Quest and the recent Finding Bigfoot.

He is also involved in a parallel study of Bigfoot DNA. The study headed by Bryan Sykes of Oxford University.

Recently Melba Ketchum has been in the spotlight due to her press release that claims Bigfoot may be part Human. Two days ago (11/27/2012) Dr. Melba Ketchum was interviewed and Dr. Jeff Meldrum commented on the interview on his Facebook Page. You can read his response right after the video below.


And Dr. Meldrum's response.
Dr. Ketchum provides a much more reasonable interview for a Houston news program. She acknowledges the prematurity of the announcement (I believe she could have stopped short of discussing her unpublished results, however). She does conclude by saying the publication is anticipated in a matter of weeks not months (we've heard that before, but I hope this time it is indeed accurate).
Please don't get me wrong. I truly hope she has the brass ring. I want very much for her study to be legitimate and significant. To that end I want to see her navigate the publication process properly and successfully!

My criticisms stem from the lack of available substantiation of her interpretation of the mtDNA results and the difficulty I have envisioning a scenario that accounts from what is proposed -- a hybridization event 15000 years ago in Eastern Europe that resulted in a population dispersed across North America.

Many people don't seem to understand the role of a null hypothesis (a working hypothesis). The aim is to attempt to falsify or refute it. The hypothesis that whatever is out there is likely a relict ape, or a relict early hominin (e.g. Paranthropus) appears the most reasonable in light of the substantive objective data (personal subjective experiences by some, notwithstanding). Melba even acknowledges this fact in her interview. If evidence, properly interpreted, overwhelmingly negates the null hypothesis, then we set it aside -- simple as that. The notion of "camps" as if they were political parties, has no legitimate place in a scientific endeavor.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website 
oldroverOffline
Great Old One
Joined: 18 Oct 2009
Total posts: 2336
Location: Wales
Gender: Male
PostPosted: 14-02-2013 02:28    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well folks it's out there. I'm not linking to it partly because as I've said before it worries me, but mostly because at this point apart from what I understand to be a pay to access article, there doesn't seem to be a lot left to link to.

They don't like you to link to them without permission but I found out about this over on doubtfulnews.

Good luck Spiny
Back to top
View user's profile 
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Fortean Times Message Board Forum Index -> Cryptozoology - manbeasts and mystery apes All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group