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Woolwich terror attack
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SpookdaddyOffline
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PostPosted: 23-05-2013 08:16    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find certain factions obsession with the detail that the victim was beheaded (which as far as I can see hasn't been confirmed or indeed suggested in the more sober reprorts I've seen) a little sickening - as if there could be anything worse than being hacked to death in the street.

Secondly, I've seen a few photographs where the attackers are being confronted by three women and I can't help wondering how that fits with their own particular interpretation of the Koran.

And, although I feel the same rage as anyone in response to an attack like this (not least because some members of my own family are still serving) I can't help feeling that many of those who respond to incidents like this with incontinent haste and what seems to me to be barely contained glee live in the same fucking caves as those they profess to hate.

Pietro_Mercurios wrote:
...Grim. Is all I could think, yesterday. Although, it did take me back twenty, or thirty years, to when the IRA tried to bring their particular brand of less than discriminating terror to the British mainland. In fact I could go back forty years, to when two of the first young British soldiers waylaid and murdered by the IRA, came from just a few streets away from where I used to live. So, yes I do take a longer view on this kind of evil shit, as well as a dim view of the sort of people, of any persuasion, who cue up to take advantage of someone's murder, for motives of their own...


Yup. Using the plight of a people to justify your actions does not indicate the approval of the people you claim to represent.
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YithianOffline
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PostPosted: 23-05-2013 09:23    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pietro_Mercurios wrote:

What a shitty thing to write.


You're right. I apologise.

It's just that I've grown to expect that any criticism of Islam on the more political threads here will be met with a great deal of relativising and then a tacit or explicit accusation that I am a racist, which I am not. Nonetheless, I'm sorry for attempting to get my reprisal in first; it was ill-mannered.

edit: I've already seen people trying to drum up support for the death penalty over this. That's pretty reprehensible.
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OneWingedBirdOffline
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PostPosted: 23-05-2013 10:00    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it actually confirmed he was beheaded? That wasn't evident to me from the youtube video that was posted earlier in this thread?

I suppose there might be a fine line between cutting a throat and what could be deemed to be partial decapitation. Confused
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cherrybombOffline
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PostPosted: 23-05-2013 10:38    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crying or Very sad Awful. Just awful.

And I agree totally with Zilch5, where is the line drawn between severely mentally unstable & terrorist?

I've already seen (with out searching for it) several comments about it being a false flag. Confused
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Quake42Offline
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PostPosted: 23-05-2013 11:17    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Is it actually confirmed he was beheaded? That wasn't evident to me from the youtube video that was posted earlier in this thread?



Reports from eyewitnesses at the scene talked about a beheading, others just referred to the victim being hacked to death. I certainly read reputable news sites talking about "beheading" last night but I don't know whether this has been officially confirmed.

There was of course a (folied) terror plot by Islamists to decapitate a Muslim soldier in 2006.

And the Stop the War Coalition have already started their relativist b*ll*cks:

Quote:
The Woolwich attack, carried out by two men now shot and wounded and under arrest in hospital, appears to represent a phenomenon that was pointed out nearly a decade ago by the security services in Britain: that the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq would lead to a growing threat of terrorism in Britain. Those of us in Stop the War have long predicted that these sorts of attacks would happen because of the war on terror.

Unfortunately there is little sign that the government, media and military will draw any of the conclusions that they should from the attack ...

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Quake42Offline
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PostPosted: 23-05-2013 11:26    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guardian and Telegraph reporting that both suspects were "known to security services".
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ramonmercadoOffline
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PostPosted: 23-05-2013 12:16    Post subject: Reply with quote

And of course its a hoax. Didn't take long.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDd9cwqoni8
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CarlosTheDJOffline
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PostPosted: 23-05-2013 12:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Independent reported "attempted beheading and disembowelling" but I haven't heard that from any other source.

I have to say everyone is a little twitchy about leaving work on foot today....
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McAvennie_Offline
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PostPosted: 23-05-2013 12:36    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pietro_Mercurios wrote:
theyithian wrote:
...

It's nothing to do with race or color - before Pietro and his ilk wade in with their magic words: search in vain for violent British subsects of the Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist, or Jewish religions. Islam is an especially intolerant religion to a degree that other similar faiths seem to have evolved beyond - in Britain at least. Most Muslims in Britain have a humane decency that tempers the countless calls for death, torture, rape and slavery their holy book demands; a small but growing number are not so consituted - and therein lies the danger.

What a shitty thing to write.

Grim. Is all I could think, yesterday. Although, it did take me back twenty, or thirty years, to when the IRA tried to bring their particular brand of less than discriminating terror to the British mainland. In fact I could go back forty years, to when two of the first young British soldiers waylaid and murdered by the IRA, came from just a few streets away from where I used to live. So, yes I do take a longer view on this kind of evil shit, as well as a dim view of the sort of people, of any persuasion, who cue up to take advantage of someone's murder, for motives of their own.

The only other things I've been thinking about the present murderous attack, so similar to the one on the late Theo van Gogh, is wondering whether these guys were working off their own bat, or as part of a terrorist cell and how their still being alive to answer for their crimes might play, compared to them being martyred at the scene.

Still, mostly just grim.


"We need to try and win the hearts and minds of these young, angry and disaffected Irish men...", said nobody ever in the 70s or 80s.

Without wanting to dredge up or cross-pollinate this with other issues and threads the one thing that always stands out for me is how post 9/11 terror is reported and viewed by the wider public compared to pre 9/11.

Imagine for a moment yesterday's incident happened in 1983 not 2013. Imagine it was a car bomb and not a stabbing/hacking/dismembering attack. And imagine the perpetrator was standing in the street afterwards while crowds watched declaring that he had done it all in the name of Irish Republicanism. I wonder how many people would have been saying things like: "Well, he is just saying that, but he is obviously just mentally unstable" or "This doesn't mean every Irish person is a member of the IRA" or "Well, I can understand why he has done this, it is all the fault of British troops" or "Can we please stop jumping to conclusions, he was probably just high on something".

You can either view this as Islamic terrorists being treated differently and handled more sensitively by the media for fear of breaking modern PC codes or you can view it as an evolution of human thinking and an enlightened ability to see the grey areas between the black and white. As with most things, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

Furthermore, in this increasingly repugnant Twitter age, I guess there are more voices to be heard. In the 70s and 80s anyone who wished to make one of the above statements would have had to make them via a Letters page, which could be self-censored and manipulated by the editor in charge. Now, anyone with a mobile phone can blurt out their 140 characters of sensationalist bile or self-satisfied moral superiority.

Also there is the fact that in the 80s I was far more interested in my Star Wars figures and running round the garden with a stick than closely following current affairs and the array of reactions across the social spectrum so it isn't really a fair comparison.

Everybody on both sides needs to calm down, take a step back to see the wider picture and take a deep breath before wading in. No, of course every Muslim and every immigrant who has come to the UK is not a terrorist or a potential threat. But equally, not everyone who expresses concern at the police's apparent fear of upsetting the Muslim community and the lenience with which some preachers are treated, when it is pretty clear what they are preaching, is a Fascist who wants to see black shirts marching through the streets persecuting anyone who cannot show five generations of British lineage.
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Quake42Offline
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PostPosted: 23-05-2013 13:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Imagine for a moment yesterday's incident happened in 1983 not 2013. Imagine it was a car bomb and not a stabbing/hacking/dismembering attack. And imagine the perpetrator was standing in the street afterwards while crowds watched declaring that he had done it all in the name of Irish Republicanism. I wonder how many people would have been saying things like: "Well, he is just saying that, but he is obviously just mentally unstable" or "This doesn't mean every Irish person is a member of the IRA" or "Well, I can understand why he has done this, it is all the fault of British troops" or "Can we please stop jumping to conclusions, he was probably just high on something".

You can either view this as Islamic terrorists being treated differently and handled more sensitively by the media for fear of breaking modern PC codes or you can view it as an evolution of human thinking and an enlightened ability to see the grey areas between the black and white. As with most things, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.



The IRA had their fellow travellers on the UK Left who did indeed make copious excuses for their murderous behaviour. But the fellow travellers were not so numerous nor so powerful as they are now and there was no attempt, so far as I am aware, to brainwash the wider public that Irish Republicanism was a doctrine of peace.

The Guardian's immediate reaction, predictably, has been to publish an opinion piece fretting about the dangers posed by the EDL in a pretty fatuous attempt to find moral equivalence between shouting nasty slogans and hacking someone to death.
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Pietro_Mercurios
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PostPosted: 23-05-2013 13:16    Post subject: Reply with quote

McAvennie_ wrote:
...

"We need to try and win the hearts and minds of these young, angry and disaffected Irish men...", said nobody ever in the 70s or 80s.

...

I come from South West Scotland. We had sectarianism up the wazoo, back in the 70s and 80s. But yes, there were quieter voices attempting to draw attention to the wider picture back then. It wasn't a complete coincidence that sectarian violence rose as heavy industry declined in Northern Ireland and SW Scotland. It was a rough old time and few of the various participants came out of it all with any glory. Rubber bullets and armalites, Irish immigrants, or their kids, being fitted up for terrorist attacks. Pubs full of people being blown to bloody giblets, car bombs, exploding city centre shopping centres, knee-cappings to keep the community in line over in NI. Black ops and H Block protests, covert assassinations, torture and hunger strikes. Thousands of innocent lives lost and people still disappeared.

Shit on a stick, Northern Ireland effectively under martial law for thirty years and civil war that dare not speak its name, it was. Hard to tell what it might have been like if today's social media had been available. Some things better, a lot worse, probably.
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gncxxOffline
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PostPosted: 23-05-2013 16:34    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to say I was glad to hear British Islamic leaders condemning this incident very quickly. Most people, no matter what religion, don't ever consider hacking someone to death to make a point.
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Quake42Offline
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PostPosted: 23-05-2013 16:43    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Just to say I was glad to hear British Islamic leaders condemning this incident very quickly.


Me too, although as I say the Islamophile so-called Left has already started the "this was unfortunate, BUT" chorus and I'm quite sure we'll see some religious types joining in shortly.
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PostPosted: 23-05-2013 17:21    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woolwich seemed a long way away and the events so extreme that the reality hardly hit home. Now we have the victim named as Drummer Lee Rigby of Middleton, North Manchester, where I was shopping this afternoon.

Middleton is more or less contiguous with Heywood, where the so-called Rochdale grooming case played out. Polarisation was already evident in the region so this is a most unfortunate coincidence. Sad

Manchester Evening News Article

1987-2013! RIP.
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McAvennie_Offline
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PostPosted: 23-05-2013 18:10    Post subject: Reply with quote

The other thing that always strikes me with these kind of cases is that the ones who actually go out and do the killing and blow themselves up are always the bottom of the chain, usually easily-led types who have been said to have been 'brainwashed' or 'radicalised'. The problem lies with those doing the 'brainwashing' and 'radicalising', the ones who clearly hold these extreme beliefs and are so eager to encourage others to carry out these horrific acts yet are too cowardly to do it themselves.

We can all reel off at least three or four names of so-called 'hate preachers' who we are seemingly powerless to sanction, it is with them that the reaction to this must begin and if that means stepping on a few PC toes then so be it. Difficult as it may be voices need to speak up from within the Muslim community as well, quite clearly not every Muslim feels this way but inside the mosques there must be signs as to who is pushing extremist ideas on the young and impressionable minds of their flock and those of the seemingly silent majority need to find their voice.
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