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Woolwich terror attack
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jimv1Offline
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PostPosted: 23-05-2013 19:20    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once more, there's blanket coverage throughout the day andit will continue for days to come. It's one thing to report this atrocity but quite another to regurgitate and serve it up on a continual basis giving the perps the attention and notoriety they planned. TV never learns. The mobile footage is an effective demonstration of how the media can fan the flames and get your neighbourhood psycho's message across to a worldwide audience.

When the news turns into Twitter, we're getting the knee-jerk reaction first.
Decaptitation. Disembowling. Shooting. Then grief and a general public shoaling and emoting. We really need to see those bouquets.

Meanwhile, the like-minded wannabes who can't sing and crave a moment of fame now know that all you need to be a terrorist are a few kitchen utensils which does away with all those dangerous explosives. It's a watershed event. And by that I mean it's rolled throught the day while kids are watching.

Bystander footage used in this way puts the viewer in a more immediate position of being at the event. While the police shout 'Back, back' another camera captures the scene from another angle.

Expect a field day from EDL and the BNP and more playing to the cameras.
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MythopoeikaOffline
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PostPosted: 23-05-2013 20:54    Post subject: Reply with quote

jimv1 wrote:
Expect a field day from EDL and the BNP and more playing to the cameras.


They seem to be remarkably restrained at the moment. I don't expect much from them apart from protests.

Muslims, on the other hand...they're not doing enough in their own community to sort out their own nutters. Little wonder that more and more people are beginning to view the entire Islamic community with mistrust.
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McAvennie_Offline
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PostPosted: 23-05-2013 21:28    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mythopoeika wrote:
jimv1 wrote:
Expect a field day from EDL and the BNP and more playing to the cameras.


They seem to be remarkably restrained at the moment. I don't expect much from them apart from protests.

Muslims, on the other hand...they're not doing enough in their own community to sort out their own nutters. Little wonder that more and more people are beginning to view the entire Islamic community with mistrust.


The only way the hate preachers can be stopped is by forcing them out and marginalising them within their own community. If they have nowhere to pedal their bile and no platform to speak from the numbers of easily-led young Muslims who become brainwashed into believing their path is a war with the country they live in will be vastly reduced.

However, the police cannot sit in on every sermon in every mosque, and nor should they have to. It requires people within that community to either stand up to those within their group who are sending out the wrong message or report them to the authorities so that they can be forcibly removed if need be.

As you say, there has to come a point where the silent majority find their voice or, to some extent, forfeit their right to act offended when the tar-brush comes out. That time is approaching faster by the week it seems...
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gncxxOffline
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PostPosted: 23-05-2013 21:30    Post subject: Reply with quote

What happened yesterday was very frightening, but the murderers wanted to spread hate, paranoia and deep suspicion so it would be terrible if they succeeded. Don't ask me how to prevent it, mind you.
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SpookdaddyOnline
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PostPosted: 24-05-2013 09:27    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mythopoeika wrote:
...Muslims, on the other hand...they're not doing enough in their own community to sort out their own nutters. Little wonder that more and more people are beginning to view the entire Islamic community with mistrust.


What are 'they' supposed to do beyond what they do already? Why are 'they' responsible for the acts of fucked-up individual members of their community any more than your average Norwegian nationalist is responsible for the actions of Anders Breivik or an English social conservative is responsible for the acts of David Copeland?

Anyone who actually knows any Muslims personally, and takes an interest, or just bothers to read the odd book or article on the subject, might have gathered that the attempts of extremists to insinuate themselves into the lives of (especially) young, impressionable, or mentally fragile people are viewed in just about the same way as perverts grooming children for exploitation - they are hated and despised as stealers of souls and destroyers of families by a vast swathe of the British Muslim community. (My ex-neighbour was much more worried about his boy accessing extremist sites than he was about what he called 'boys stuff')

I've never known those representatives of the wider Muslim community who come forward at times like this to withold or qualify their condemnation of acts like this. Those who do tend to be fringe characters with a much smaller but potentially more lethal pool of adherents.

When people say Muslims are not doing enough to address the issue, I'm not really sure what it is they are actually suggesting is not being done - I'm also not sure they are either. I also suspect that some people put their fingers in their mental ears and go la la la whenever a representative of the wider community does do something, just so they can act as if it never happened; for some people at least whatever they do, will not be enough. I'm kind of reminded of an article by some fem-fascist wanker in the Guardian a couple of weeks ago, which suggested that 'men' (that definition covers all of us with an X and a Y, by the way, just as 'Muslim' covers the entire couple of billion individuals in that particular spectrum) were not doing enough to condemn the acts of other men convicted for historical sexual abuse (actually, I'm not sure she was much bothered about actual conviction, just the suggestion would do, I suspect) and were presumably therefore somehow guilty by association, or maybe even covering for the fact that they didn't much think they'd done anything wrong.

Make no mistake, once you identify an entire community with the activities of its extreme fringes you are an big, big trouble. The phrase self-fulfilling prophecy could have been coined for this exact scenario.
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Quake42Offline
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PostPosted: 24-05-2013 10:00    Post subject: Reply with quote

What Spookdaddy says is right up to a point. Of course the vast majority of Muslims in the UK are not terrorists and most of us will know sensible people of that faith.

BUT.

Survey after survey shows disturbing attitudes in the Muslim community which would lead to howls of "fascist" if held elsewhere, In particular, significant minorities (ie 30%+) of Muslims claim to support such things as the death penalty for gays and apostates. An increasing number of women, in London at least, seem to wear hijab and in many cases the full niqab or burqa. Hate speech is common place in many mosques. So-called "moderate" Islamic scholars call for the beating of women and execution of gays. Outrage over real or imagined insults to Islam lead to demonstrations and violence... the list goes on and these problems are not confined to the UK.

These problems simply do not exist in other faiths. Can you seriously imagine the Pope and Archbishop of Canterbury holding a discussion on tbe exact thickness of the rod with which it is acceptable to beat one's wife? Or Jews rioting because someone called a teddy bear Abraham?

No, me neither.
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SpookdaddyOnline
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PostPosted: 24-05-2013 10:54    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not defending Islam - I don't like religions, full stop, although I have a lot of time for some individual people of faith.

It's not about defending or condemning Islam or individual areas of doctrine - it's about holding a vast spectrum of belief, experience and combined individuality, with the specific acts of particular individuals. To be honest I'm not entirely sure what you're saying: two Muslim guys murder a man on a London street (agreed), Islam has some pretty nasty elements (agreed), therefore the wider Musim community........Therefore what?

(On you're final point - yes, but in historical terms we're barely a blink away from such things. And - just as an aside, because I get the general point - in the wider world Orthodox Jews do riot over what to us would seem ridiculous points of order and/or what most people would consider reasonable acts on the part of the authorities. The more inflexible orthodoxies - Pentecostalists, Baptist Fundamentalists, Ultra-Catholics, in fact the ultra fringes of most religions - are all barely one remove from medievalism).
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Quake42Offline
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PostPosted: 24-05-2013 11:20    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
To be honest I'm not entirely sure what you're saying: two Muslim guys murder a man on a London street (agreed), Islam has some pretty nasty elements (agreed), therefore the wider Musim community........Therefore what?



No easy answers but some suggestions - most aimed at public policy generally rather than Muslims in particular:

- official recognition that we are a secular society. People are free to practise their religion to the extent that it does not impinge on others but there will be no special treatment based on faith
- equality before the law, so that Islamic hate preachers are treated in the same way as BNP rabble rousers and police and social services feel able to do their job without accusations of racism or cultural insenstivity
- no new religious schools (for any faith)
- no use of sharia in civil law
- a crackdown on FGM and forced marriage
- no more visas granted for arranged marriages
- an end to the reliance on self-appointed "community leaders" who purport to speak for entire cultural groups
- support for secular and ex-Muslims


Quote:
yes, but in historical terms we're barely a blink away from such things. And - just as an aside, because I get the general point - in the wider world Orthodox Jews do riot over what to us would seem ridiculous points of order and/or what most people would consider reasonable acts on the part of the authorities.


Occasionally fundamentalist followers of any and all relgions get wound up about something, it's true. I would challenge you to find anything comparanble in scale or seriousness to the Rushdie or cartoons involving any other religion since (say) WWII.

The "Christianity did bad things in medieval times" whataboutery doesnt wash either. Yes, bad things happened in the name of Christianity hundreds of years ago. Since then we have, thankfully, had an Enlightenment and liberal secular values are well-established - although certainly under threat from Islamists and fellow-travellers. We can acknowledge that terrible events occurred centuries ago but it does nothing to help us deal with today's issues.
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SpookdaddyOnline
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PostPosted: 24-05-2013 11:50    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quake42 wrote:
The "Christianity did bad things in medieval times" whataboutery doesnt wash either.


I'd agree - but, it's not what I said.

And setting a 'hundreds of years ago' datum on the statement 'bad things happened in the name of Christianity', is, to put it mildly, pretty contentious.

To be honest though, I don't want to get into a Christianity/Muslim thing - I'm more interested in the fact that all religions have a dark side (even Buddhism, which has managed to get itself a very good press over the years), one which is adhered to by a few all the time, and many more in times of crisis (real or perceived) and that it's effectively circumstances that bring that out rather than simply inherent badness.

It seems to have been forgotten now, but at the end of the 90's there was quite a lot of talk about European Islam entering a kind of quiet reformation. 9/11 and the inevitable hardening of lines put paid to all that, and the step forward became two steps back.

I suppose if anything my own opinion on the matter is that the only way to get back to that point of potential change is to avoid that hardening of lines, avoid the generalisations, avoid the prejudices, avoid the cliches, even if it sometimes appears that you are on the only side doing so - I think it's the only way to leave open the way back.

Oh, and I agree with all your suggestions.

As an aside Ed Husain in his book The Islamist claimed that many of the 'self-apponted community leaders' the media used regularly were actually connected to extremism and not representative of the community they claimed to represent. Husain is an ex Islamist and ex member of Hizb ut-Tahrir and new the individuals he was talking about.


Last edited by Spookdaddy on 24-05-2013 12:28; edited 1 time in total
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Quake42Offline
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PostPosted: 24-05-2013 12:26    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
To be honest though, I don't want to get into a Christianity/Muslim thing - I'm more interested in the fact that all religions have a dark side (even Buddhism, which has managed to get itself a very good press over the years), one which is adhered to by a few all the time, and many more in times of crisis (real or perceived).



You're quite right, they do. However it's also right to say that none of the other major religions are implicated in violence and reaction in anything like the same way as Islam and have not been for a good long while.

It's also fair to say that Islam has been since its origin a very aggressive and expansionist doctrine and has been rivalled in this only by Christianity.

I accept your point on the risks of the hardening of lines. My concern however is that much of the "other religions and cultures do this too" stuff (a) risks obscuring the real issues in a fog of relativism and (b) is very often transparent nonsense. Nothing is likely to lead to a hardening of lines more than the apparent inability of liberals (in the widest sense) to be able to get to grips with the deeply reactionary ideology in our midst. For what is probably the only time I'm going to quote David Cameron - what's needed to tackle this is muscular liberalism. Not cultural cringe.

Quote:
It seems to have been forgotten now, but at the end of the 90's there was quite a lot of talk about European Islam entering a kind of quiet reformation.


Was there? If so this seems to have passed me by. I remember a lot of shouty jihadis in London and the ongoing fall out from the Rushdie affair. Do you have any more information on this?
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SpookdaddyOnline
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PostPosted: 24-05-2013 12:52    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quake42 wrote:
Quote:
It seems to have been forgotten now, but at the end of the 90's there was quite a lot of talk about European Islam entering a kind of quiet reformation.


Was there? If so this seems to have passed me by. I remember a lot of shouty jihadis in London and the ongoing fall out from the Rushdie affair. Do you have any more information on this?


This is all from memory - if I find a source I'll post it - unfortunately the vast and all-consuming online fall-out from 9/11 has drowned so much related material from the immediately preceding period:

It was suggested that a model of Islam was growing in France (I can't remember why it was France particularly) which represented the seeds of a potential reformation.

This was not an organised or centralised or even particularly self-conscious process rather than a kind of evolution. No-one was suggesting an overnight change, or that the process on a wider scale wouldn't be messy and occasionally violent (reformations always are).

The idea was not an isolated one - one documentary I remember seeing had spokespeople from across Europe, and not just from the Muslim world. It was also claimed that the reaction from hard-liners which, paradoxically, saw a growth in radical Islam, was an inevitable part of the process - which, to my mind, makes perfect sense.

The interesting thing, if you follow this model, is that it opens up the possibility that the growth of fundamentalism can be seen as a response to a crisis within Islam, rather than a reaction to outside forces (as such hardline activity clearly is in similar processes).

Anyway, I'll have a hunt round - unfortunately it's about the time I gave up on the idea of writing and consequently stopped taking notes obsessively.
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MythopoeikaOffline
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PostPosted: 24-05-2013 20:27    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good suggestions from Quake earlier.

I'd also suggest some kind of youth outreach by moderate Muslims to try to make disaffected youth feel more 'connected' to the wider community. I think they may do this already, but lots of young men are falling through the net.

Moderate Muslim religious organisations such as the Muslim Council of Great Britain need to work together and assert their ideological primacy, and to outlaw any extremist groups within their community. There is far too much fragmentation within the Muslim religion, and there is no central figure who can be a leader (i.e. an equivalent to the Pope). Perhaps the long-term goal might be to produce greater union between Islamic groups, eliminating the fragmentation.

Perhaps where people are found to have extremist views, they could be 'de-programmed' - as it is quite clear many of these young men have been 'got at' and are being manipulated by another person.
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rynner2Offline
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PostPosted: 24-05-2013 23:03    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clegg: Woolwich suspects 'perverted' religion of peace

Deputy PM Nick Clegg quoted from the Koran as he told a meeting of faith leaders Islam had been "perverted" by the alleged murderers of Lee Rigby.
Speaking alongside politicians from other parties, the Lib Dem leader called for people of all faiths to present a united front against terror.
He said a message of "hope over fear, of community over division" was "immensely important".
He called on people to resist a "fear" in the aftermath of the murder.

Mr Clegg was approached by leaders in the Muslim community asking for him to work with them to bring together people from all faiths and backgrounds to demonstrate that London stands united against all forms of extremism.

Clegg cited verse 32 chapter 5 the Koran, which says: "If anyone kills a human being it shall be as though he killed all mankind whereas if anyone saves a life it shall be as though he saved the whole of mankind."

He added: "A religion of peace was being distorted, turned upside down and inside out, perverted in the cause of an abhorrent and violent set of intentions.
"Terrorism has no religion because there is no religious conviction that can justify the kind of arbitrary, savage random violence that we saw on the streets of Woolwich."

He called on people not to allow the attack to frighten them into disrupting their normal way of life.
He said: "We have a choice to either allow that powerful corrosive feeling of fear to seep into every second and minute and hour of our lives or we can make a choice that we're not going to change our behaviour."

Shadow communities minister Sadiq Khan, for Labour, praised the leadership shown by the David Cameron, Nick Clegg, Boris Johnson and Ed Miliband.

Drummer Lee Rigby, 25, was hacked to death in a street in Woolwich, South London, on Wednesday afternoon.
The murder suspects Michael Adebolajo and Michael Adebowale were shot by police at the scene and remain under arrest in hospital.
Mr Khan said the phrase "Allahu Akbar" (God is great) reportedly shouted by the suspects at the scene, should not be re-appropriated from extremists.

He said: "For those who are Muslims, don't allow these people to hijack our religion or the words Allah is the greatest."

Conservative peer Lord Ahmad said: "No matter what faith you are, no matter what your background, no matter who you are what you do, together we stand united in the condemnation of a most despicable and horrific act."

Other speakers at the event included Imam Shams Ad Duha of Ebrahim College, Canon Guy Wilkinson and Leonie Lewis, co chairs of the London Faiths Forum.

On Thursday, Prime Minister David Cameron described the Woolwich attack as "deeply shocking".
"The people that did this were trying to divide us. They should know something like this will only bring us together and make us stronger," he added.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22652340
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CavynautOffline
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PostPosted: 25-05-2013 23:58    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mythopoeika wrote:


Muslims, on the other hand...they're not doing enough in their own community


Frankly speaking, I'm sick to bleeding death of reading and hearing about "communities".

If it's not the dog walking community, then it's the cat owning community.

Or the caving community, or the rock climbing community, or the sailing or swimming communities.

I thought we were all members of the citizen community or the subject community?
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JamesWhiteheadOffline
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PostPosted: 26-05-2013 11:39    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed! Community was probably a leftish buzz-word but I recall it became flavour of the month with right-wing twonks when AIDS struck. Sad
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