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Dreaming of the dead
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gellatly68Offline
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PostPosted: 24-09-2013 12:46    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ademordna's post about dreaming of three kids after moving into a house triggered off a memory of a similar event that happened to me.
In August 1988, my mum, sister and I moved into our new house - nothing special, a 1960's mid-terrace job. Mum had found and bought it by a lucky happenstance: her GP was acting as executor for the property after one of his relatives, an old lady, had passed away, and he found out mum was after a new place, so they arranged a private sale.
On my first night there, after a busy day of moving and unpacking, I had a fairly unsettled night's sleep, which is quite normal for me whenever I find myself in unfamiliar surroundings. However, I seem to have finally got some real sleep sometime in the early morning. And that's when I had the dream.
The doorbell was ringing in my dream, and I went down to answer it. At the door was a tall, somewhat austere woman with Snow White hair, and the most amazing blue eyes. You could tell that as a younger woman she would have been strikingly beautiful, and even though she was now well advanced in years, there was something arresting about her, yet she seemed to crouch slightly, as if afraid, and every now and then a trembling hand would come up to her mouth.
"Can I come in?" She asked.
I didn't know what to say, except "who are you?"
"I live here."
"No, you don't, we've just moved in".
"I live here"
And this conversation went on for a while, me trying to convince her there was some kind of mistake and that she didn't live there.
Then she said, "can't you invite me in?"
I said, "no, it's mum's house. Maybe she can let you in", and I turned round to call for my mum. As I did so, I felt all the hairs on my neck rise, and I had a massive urge to get the hell out of there, which I did by the simple expedient of waking up Very Happy
So, a spooky dream which lingered in my mind for the rest of the day, but not much to write home about really. We got to know the neighbours - all mostly older residents, but with a really nice sense of community. A few days later, one of them showed us some photos of the parties they used to throw together.
"This one shows poor Mrs Thomas - it's her house you live in", the neighbour said.
Guess who was in the picture...... Shocked Shocked
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MythopoeikaOffline
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PostPosted: 24-09-2013 18:35    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whoa. Shocked
That is scary.
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AdemordnaOffline
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PostPosted: 24-09-2013 20:39    Post subject: Reply with quote

gellatly68, that is terrifying!

This reminds me of something my dad used to say (he apparently saw all sorts of odd things, but would rarely talk of them) that if you suspected a house contained a spirit, you were supposed to open the front door and politely ask it to leave.

Likewise, I am glad you didn't let the woman in, for maybe she needed permission to enter, for some unearthly reason.....
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AdemordnaOffline
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PostPosted: 24-09-2013 20:42    Post subject: Reply with quote

escargot1 wrote:
A BBC Radio 4 series started yesterday which fits perfectly here. Very Happy

Powell mentions the appearance of the dead in people's dreams, which in ancient times was taken as genuine contact with them.

I really enjoyed this programme and can highly recommend it.
In fact, I'm going to Listen Again right now, before I get up. Wink

Our Dreams: Our Selves

Quote:
Morpheus Descending: Gods and Ghosts in the Ancient World

Puzzling over the nightly drama of our dreams is one of the most enduring of all human endeavours. We suspect that our dreams are meaningless, and yet we can't resist the urge to interpret the most vivid, transporting or troubling of them. The way dreams have been understood tells us a great deal, both about long dead dreamers, and the worlds in which they lived.

Over the course of this week, Lucy Powell explores the history of dreams and what we think they mean, a hundred years after Sigmund Freud's great work 'The Interpretation of Dreams' appeared in English.

She'll be exploring medieval mystics, renaissance dreamers, Romantic nightmares and the latest findings in neuroscience, but today she returns to the gods and ghosts of the ancient Greeks.

Freud described psychoanalysis as a kind of archaeology of the mind, a search for buried pieces of the past that the analyst must carefully retrieve, pull up to the light, and unlock to reveal their hidden meanings.

And on Freud's desk, in his north London study, are real archaeological treasures: figures from ancient Greece, Rome, and Mesopotamia, part of the collection of over 2000 antiquities he collected during his lifetime - statues and frescos and strange, goggle-eyed gargoyles.

He called them his 'old and grubby gods' who aided him in his work. They make of Freud's study a strange kind of dream-scape, filled with fragments of the past. Because in seeking to forge a new theory of dreams, Freud reached right back to the earliest dreams in Western history.


We suspect that our dreams are meaningless, and yet we can't resist the urge to interpret the most vivid, transporting or troubling of them.
How true. Cool


I wonder if this is because we somehow instinctively know that they have such a deep connection to us, or our 'higher selves'?

I really love how Fox Mulder described nightmares, I think it goes something like this: Dreams are the answers to questions that we've forgotten how to ask.
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GingerTabbyOffline
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PostPosted: 27-09-2013 20:44    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote=Likewise, I am glad you didn't let the woman in, for maybe she needed permission to enter, for some unearthly reason.....[/quote]

I've noticed comments elsewhere on the board to the effect that an evil entity requires permission to enter a person's house, car, etc. I'm curious about the origins of this notion. It seems odd that such an entity would require the permission of humans to do harm but I suppose logic doesn't enter into these matters. I'm just wondering where this idea of seeking permission comes from.
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EnolaGaiaOffline
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PostPosted: 27-09-2013 21:13    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ademordna wrote:
I really love how Fox Mulder described nightmares, I think it goes something like this: Dreams are the answers to questions that we've forgotten how to ask.


The precise quote is:


“Dreams are the answers to questions that we haven't yet figured out how to ask.”
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EnolaGaiaOffline
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PostPosted: 27-09-2013 21:20    Post subject: Reply with quote

GingerTabby wrote:

I've noticed comments elsewhere on the board to the effect that an evil entity requires permission to enter a person's house, car, etc. I'm curious about the origins of this notion. It seems odd that such an entity would require the permission of humans to do harm but I suppose logic doesn't enter into these matters. I'm just wondering where this idea of seeking permission comes from.


Good question!

I've noticed a recurring motif in old folklore concerning demons and evil spirits having to trick you or otherwise obtain your acquiescence to enter your space (or enter _you_). Off hand, I can't recall any examples of a benign spirit / entity needing to do this.
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escargot1Offline
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PostPosted: 28-09-2013 16:10    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I've noticed a recurring motif in old folklore concerning demons and evil spirits having to trick you or otherwise obtain your acquiescence to enter your space (or enter _you_).


Yes, and y'know, it wouldn't stand up in a court of law. Wink

If someone is tricked into agreeing to something (handing over money, signing over property, even having sex Shocked ) then legally they haven't consented to it and a crime has been committed. It has always seemed unfair to me that demons and evil spirits could get away with this.

It''s one rule for us and another for them! Evil or Very Mad

Laughing
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gncxxOffline
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PostPosted: 29-09-2013 18:07    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doesn't the permission thing stem from vampires needing to be invited in before they can feed on the occupants of the home? Or was that an invention of Bram Stoker? It was certainly in Fright Night (original).
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MythopoeikaOffline
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PostPosted: 29-09-2013 18:38    Post subject: Reply with quote

gncxx wrote:
Doesn't the permission thing stem from vampires needing to be invited in before they can feed on the occupants of the home? Or was that an invention of Bram Stoker? It was certainly in Fright Night (original).


It also happened in Buffy, IIRC.
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GingerTabbyOffline
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PostPosted: 30-09-2013 18:25    Post subject: Reply with quote

escargot1 wrote:
Quote:
I've noticed a recurring motif in old folklore concerning demons and evil spirits having to trick you or otherwise obtain your acquiescence to enter your space (or enter _you_).


Yes, and y'know, it wouldn't stand up in a court of law. Wink

If someone is tricked into agreeing to something (handing over money, signing over property, even having sex Shocked ) then legally they haven't consented to it and a crime has been committed. It has always seemed unfair to me that demons and evil spirits could get away with this.

It''s one rule for us and another for them! Evil or Very Mad

Laughing


This two-tiered system of justice is indeed intolerable. I shall write to my MP to protest the preferential treatment given to evil entities. Wink

Seriously, though, I do find it intriguing that this motif of invitation recurs in folklore.
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PeniGOffline
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PostPosted: 01-10-2013 12:41    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think about it, though. That's a decent metaphorical depiction of how evil works.

Nobody and nothing makes you do wrong against your will. You do wrong things voluntarily and in spite of knowing better. Evil is constantly knocking on the doors of action, but you don't do evil actions until you decide to - you invite evil into your life.

But most of the time, you're tricking yourself into thinking it's not an evil action, but a good one, or at least an innocuous and harmless one; just because you want to do it without thinking less of yourself.
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EnolaGaiaOffline
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PostPosted: 01-10-2013 13:04    Post subject: Reply with quote

PeniG wrote:
Think about it, though. That's a decent metaphorical depiction of how evil works.

Nobody and nothing makes you do wrong against your will. You do wrong things voluntarily and in spite of knowing better. Evil is constantly knocking on the doors of action, but you don't do evil actions until you decide to - you invite evil into your life. ...


If one assumes this is the theme conveyed by stories involving evil requiring permission, it provides a basis for suggesting this theme affords folklore the means for describing correct behavior (if not prescribing what should be considered in deciding correct behavior). It turns entertaining tales into cautionary parables. It's the sort of spin or twist anyone interested in nurturing 'right behavior' would want to impart to popularly-disseminated stories.
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GingerTabbyOffline
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PostPosted: 01-10-2013 19:52    Post subject: Reply with quote

EnolaGaia wrote:
PeniG wrote:
Think about it, though. That's a decent metaphorical depiction of how evil works.

Nobody and nothing makes you do wrong against your will. You do wrong things voluntarily and in spite of knowing better. Evil is constantly knocking on the doors of action, but you don't do evil actions until you decide to - you invite evil into your life. ...


If one assumes this is the theme conveyed by stories involving evil requiring permission, it provides a basis for suggesting this theme affords folklore the means for describing correct behavior (if not prescribing what should be considered in deciding correct behavior). It turns entertaining tales into cautionary parables. It's the sort of spin or twist anyone interested in nurturing 'right behavior' would want to impart to popularly-disseminated stories.


You've both made excellent points and have given me food for thought. Thank you for your comments.
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cherrybombOffline
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PostPosted: 02-10-2013 15:21    Post subject: Reply with quote

escargot1 wrote:

We suspect that our dreams are meaningless, and yet we can't resist the urge to interpret the most vivid, transporting or troubling of them.
How true. Cool


And that's my new signature! Very Happy

A good friend of mine said that she had a dream about her mother in law (who passed away earlier this year) last night & put it down to being pregnant. She's terrified of anything other worldly, but I did think maybe her MiL wanted to check she was ok from the other side. Odd for me to think something like that as I usually wouldn't believe in anything so silly! Shocked Confused
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