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Quake42 Warrior Princess
Great Old One Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Total posts: 5313 Location: Over Silbury Hill, through the Solar field Gender: Unknown |
 Posted: 23-09-2013 11:45 Post subject: Kenya mall terrorist attack |
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Surprised that there isn't a thread on the shocking events in Nairobi.
The latest reports suggest nearly 70 dead and over 175 injured. There are rumours (disputed in the report below) that some of the attackers were British. You may remember the delightful Mr Lewthwaite as the widow of one of the 7/7 bombers.
| Quote: | Nairobi Westgate attack: Group denies Britons involved
A commander with the group believed to behind the attack on a Kenyan shopping centre has told the BBC reports some of the militants were British are untrue.
The Foreign Office is investigating claims after Twitter accounts claiming to be from al-Shabab named some of the attackers and said they were British.
Sixty-nine people have been killed, including three Britons.
Prime Minister David Cameron is cutting short a visit to Balmoral to chair an emergency meeting later.
Families of the victims have been informed, the Foreign Office said.
A Twitter account purporting to be an al-Shabab spokesman, which has now been shut down, named a 24-year-old man from London as one of the gunmen.
On the run
A later account, also claiming to be from the Somali al-Shabab movement, named Samantha Lewthwaite.
Media reports suggest Ms Lewthwaite, the widow of 7 July bomber Jermaine Lindsay, was involved in the attack but the Foreign Office says it has no evidence and is unwilling to speculate.
An al-Shabab military commander, who called himself Abu Omar, told the BBC that reports some of the attackers were from the UK or US were baseless - as were reports that women had also stormed the shopping centre.
Ms Lewthwaite, who comes from Aylesbury, is on the run and is wanted by Kenyan police over links to a suspected terror cell.
Dubbed the "White Widow" by many of the papers, it is understood she fled across the border from Kenya to Somalia in 2012.
At least 170 people were also injured since the attack began in Kenya's capital Nairobi on Saturday.
Between 10 and 15 attackers are still inside the Westgate shopping centre. Heavy gunfire and explosions have been heard on Monday morning.
Video footage of the attack shows terrified shoppers running for cover
The Foreign Office has said it expects the number of British fatalities to rise.
Mr Cameron, who has warned the UK to be braced for "more bad news", called the attack "an absolutely sickening and despicable attack of appalling brutality".
"These appalling terrorist attacks that take place where the perpetrators claim they do it in the name of a religion - they don't," he said.
"They do it in the name of terror, violence and extremism and their warped view of the world. They don't represent Islam or Muslims in Britain or anywhere else in the world."
The British government's emergency response committee, Cobra, has already met twice to discuss the attacks.
On Monday, the prime minister tweeted: "I'm cutting short a visit to Balmoral to return to Downing St to chair Cobra late this afternoon, dealing with the Kenya terror attacks."
A Cobra meeting is a get together of ministers, civil servants, the police, intelligence officers and others appropriate to whatever they are looking into.
The UK has offered Kenya assistance, including intelligence co-operation.
UK staff from Addis Ababa in Ethiopia travelled to assist locally-based officials and a rapid deployment team was sent from London, the Foreign Office said.
Shoppers have told of how they huddled in back hallways as gunmen threw grenades and then opened fire.
Foreigners from France, Canada, India, the Netherlands, South Africa, Ghana and the US were also killed in the attack, including a Canadian diplomat working at Canada's High Commission to Kenya.
Al-Shabab says it carried out the attack in response to Kenyan military operations in Somalia.
The group, which is part of the al-Qaeda network, has repeatedly threatened attacks on Kenyan soil if Nairobi did not pull its troops out of Somalia.
There are about 4,000 Kenyan troops in the south of Somalia, where they have been fighting the militants since 2011.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24201575 |
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| Cavynaut Skoumed!
Usually tired. Joined: 10 Apr 2003 Total posts: 1976 Location: Crouch Wailing. UK. Age: 56 Gender: Male |
| Posted: 23-09-2013 21:58 Post subject: |
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Truly horrible.
And with around 80 Pakistani Christians killed by suicide bombers, it's been a sad few days.
It's difficult to conceive of anything that can be done to stop the ideology that is behind such atrocities. |
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| Quake42 Warrior Princess
Great Old One Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Total posts: 5313 Location: Over Silbury Hill, through the Solar field Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 24-09-2013 09:31 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | It's difficult to conceive of anything that can be done to stop the ideology that is behind such atrocities.
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Well, for starters I think we could stop pandering to it. I'm pretty tired of politicians falling over themselves to insist that the latest atrocity is "nothing to do with Islam" when the perpetrators are very clear that it is everything to do with Islam, or at least one interpretation of it.
At least no one has so far churned out the "religion of peace" mantra, which is only seems to be used ironically these days. |
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| Cavynaut Skoumed!
Usually tired. Joined: 10 Apr 2003 Total posts: 1976 Location: Crouch Wailing. UK. Age: 56 Gender: Male |
| Posted: 24-09-2013 13:35 Post subject: |
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| Quake42 wrote: |
Well, for starters I think we could stop pandering to it. I'm pretty tired of politicians falling over themselves to insist that the latest atrocity is "nothing to do with Islam" when the perpetrators are very clear that it is everything to do with Islam, or at least one interpretation of it.
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I'd certainly agree with you, but I cannot see how it would stop what is literally a "death cult".
Short of assuring would be attackers that their own families would be relentlessly targeted in retribution (and that is not something that I could ever agree with) I can't see any way of quelling this interpretation of Islam. |
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| Quake42 Warrior Princess
Great Old One Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Total posts: 5313 Location: Over Silbury Hill, through the Solar field Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 24-09-2013 13:49 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Short of assuring would be attackers that their own families would be relentlessly targeted in retribution (and that is not something that I could ever agree with) I can't see any way of quelling this interpretation of Islam.
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It seems several of the attackers were US or European-based. We could do some things to quell fundamentalism at home:
* Ban foreign financing of mosques and Islamic schools.
* Take action on incitement within mosques and deport non-UK nationals who are found engaging in such preaching.
* Zero tolerance for attempts to set up "sharia zones" in East London and elsewhere.
* Action on extremist groups proselytising in universities and prisons.
* Mainstream politicians discussing openly why these problems arise with only one religion and what should be done about it. |
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| Mythopoeika Boring petty conservative
Joined: 18 Sep 2001 Total posts: 9109 Location: Not far from Bedford Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 24-09-2013 19:55 Post subject: |
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Add to that list the following:
Stop anybody from an Islamic country getting residency here.
Stop arranged marriages where a spouse is brought into the country.
Stop anybody who is Islamic from working in airports or in passport offices.
I know that sounds really harsh and is actually discriminatory (and would be unfair to innocent people), but it would discourage terrorist-type people from moving to this country.
Extreme challenges may demand extreme precautionary measures. |
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| OneWingedBird Great Old One Joined: 19 Nov 2012 Total posts: 542 Location: Attice of blinkey lights Age: 44 Gender: Female |
| Posted: 24-09-2013 20:06 Post subject: |
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Because you have to watch out for those terrorist type people.
We need a facepalm smiley on this board. |
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| Mythopoeika Boring petty conservative
Joined: 18 Sep 2001 Total posts: 9109 Location: Not far from Bedford Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 24-09-2013 20:24 Post subject: |
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| OneWingedBird wrote: | Because you have to watch out for those terrorist type people.
We need a facepalm smiley on this board. |
Well...we now have to (sadly) make the assumption that all Muslims are potential terrorists. Because terrorists don't come with a label on their heads saying 'Terrorist'.
Edit: By the way, I am not seriously suggesting that Muslim=Terrorist. It's just got to the state where in order to get anything done, government might have to think along those lines. |
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| OneWingedBird Great Old One Joined: 19 Nov 2012 Total posts: 542 Location: Attice of blinkey lights Age: 44 Gender: Female |
| Posted: 24-09-2013 20:57 Post subject: |
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That sounds to me like you are actually making the assumption that you need to say you're not making. 
I don't care for religion much, but we still need freedom of belief... and for that matter, can't think of a specific instance where a muslim working in border control has been compromised, although there was one a while back who put his partner on the Al Q suspect list to get rid of her! |
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| Mythopoeika Boring petty conservative
Joined: 18 Sep 2001 Total posts: 9109 Location: Not far from Bedford Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 24-09-2013 21:32 Post subject: |
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| OneWingedBird wrote: | That sounds to me like you are actually making the assumption that you need to say you're not making.
I don't care for religion much, but we still need freedom of belief... and for that matter, can't think of a specific instance where a muslim working in border control has been compromised, although there was one a while back who put his partner on the Al Q suspect list to get rid of her! |
Sorry for the confusion!
I'm saying we (the people) shouldn't make the actual assumption that Muslim=Terrorist, because that is clearly a fallacy - but in order to achieve anything, the government has to behave as if it is true (even though it's not).
See?
[Edit: Yeah, I know, I worded it badly earlier.]
I can't find a particular citation, but I distinctly remember hearing in the news about a couple of cases where passport office workers of foreign origin 'expedited' passport/visa applications for people they knew. |
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| Cochise Great Old One Joined: 17 Jun 2011 Total posts: 1106 Location: Gwynedd, Wales Age: 58 Gender: Male |
| Posted: 25-09-2013 09:02 Post subject: |
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I think it is necessary to distinguish between individual misdeeds (someone letting in their - moderate - relatives) and terrorists, some of whom at least appear to be home-grown.
It is going to be difficult though - the 'war on Terrorism' has been completely misdirected, and I'm not sure what we do now - however the first step might be to make clear that you will conform, in this country, to the rule of law and the conventions of our culture regardless of your religion or 'ethnic group'.
An obvious area to tackle are the veils - non-Muslims are not allowed to go around with their faces hidden - try getting served in a shop with a full face crash helmet or a balaclava on - you won't. The same should apply to everyone. The answer to anyone objecting, British national or not, should be that it is not acceptable here, and that there are countries where it is acceptable - go there. The Australians seem capable of saying that - why aren't we?
Moderate Muslims find covering the hair a perfectly acceptable compromise, and while I'm a bit hinky with any religion that tells ordinary people what to wear (as being on the road to extremism), that seems a reasonable compromise on 'our' side as well. After all, we accept turbans and the like. |
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| Quake42 Warrior Princess
Great Old One Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Total posts: 5313 Location: Over Silbury Hill, through the Solar field Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 25-09-2013 09:39 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | The Australians seem capable of saying that - why aren't we?
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Unfortunately there are a fair few burkas to be seen in Australia as well, not to mention grooming/rape gangs and some charming imams who describe women in Western dresss as pieces of meat to be eaten.
| Quote: | Add to that list the following:
Stop anybody from an Islamic country getting residency here.
Stop arranged marriages where a spouse is brought into the country.
Stop anybody who is Islamic from working in airports or in passport offices.
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I don't think we should be giving visas for arranged marriages full stop - there is no reason for third and fourth generation immigrants to be marrying their second cousin from the village back home. It discourages intergration and many of the imported spouses speak little English and do not contribute to the country's finances.
Rather unfair to ban all Muslims from working in certain jobs though! If we are to be serious about tackling the cancer that is Islamism policy should focus on making it more difficult to spread the ideology and not on bullying individual Muslims. |
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| Pietro_Mercurios Heuristically Challenged
Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 25-09-2013 09:58 Post subject: |
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| If you want to push ordinary Muslims into the arms of the extremists, you're definitely going the right way about it. |
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| Quake42 Warrior Princess
Great Old One Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Total posts: 5313 Location: Over Silbury Hill, through the Solar field Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 25-09-2013 10:07 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If you want to push ordinary Muslims into the arms of the extremists, you're definitely going the right way about it. |
I'm not sure why would any of the actions I suggested would push "ordinary Muslims" into the arms of extremists. Presumably these "ordinary Muslims" dont like hate preachers or sharia zones either. Or are you suggesting that the "ordinary Muslims" will become terrorists if we don't give the extremists everything that they want?
I don't buy this argument that we have to keep appeasing Islam and Islamism if we want a quiet life. Appeasement of this sort never works and it's time that the West made it quite clear that we will no longer pander to this ideology. |
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| Spookdaddy Cuckoo Joined: 24 May 2006 Total posts: 3925 Location: Midwich Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 25-09-2013 10:14 Post subject: |
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| Mythopoeika wrote: | | Well...we now have to (sadly) make the assumption that all Muslims are potential terrorists. Because terrorists don't come with a label on their heads saying 'Terrorist'. |
If you're seriously going to start making assumptions on mere 'potential'...well, we might as well all lock ourselves up now. |
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