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silverity Yeti Joined: 15 Sep 2011 Total posts: 33 Gender: Unknown |
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| silverity Yeti Joined: 15 Sep 2011 Total posts: 33 Gender: Unknown |
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| Bigfoot73 Great Old One Joined: 19 May 2009 Total posts: 1079 Location: Leeds Gender: Male |
 Posted: 23-01-2012 06:05 Post subject: |
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Interesting. I would have dismissed the 1933 sighting as something the kids had cooked up but for the description of the " camel-like head". Other witnesses have made that comparison, and the creature in the famous Ogopogo photo has a distinctly camel -like head.
There are several onshore sightings from Norwegian fjords. I wonder what this creature comes ashore for ? |
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| silverity Yeti Joined: 15 Sep 2011 Total posts: 33 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 23-01-2012 10:55 Post subject: |
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Good question.
Biologically speaking it would boil down to food, reproduction, territory or flight.
The only one that makes the most sense is food followed perhaps by territory.
Roland |
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| oldrover Great Old One Joined: 18 Oct 2009 Total posts: 2147 Location: Wales Gender: Male |
| Posted: 23-01-2012 13:31 Post subject: |
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Firstly hello Silverity nice to have a new face on this forum.
| Quote: | | the creature in the famous Ogopogo photo has a distinctly camel -like head. |
Do you mean the Champ photograph?
| Quote: | | Biologically speaking it would boil down to food, reproduction, territory or flight. |
Sorry to disagree but I think that as soon as you bring biology into this question it kills it off. There's no convincing explanation that could support any large unknown biological creature living in Loch Ness, particularly if it comes onto land, and definitely if there's enough of them for territory to be a problem. |
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| silverity Yeti Joined: 15 Sep 2011 Total posts: 33 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 23-01-2012 16:01 Post subject: |
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I don't think this is as big an issue as people make out especially when:
a. Nobody knows how much food is in Loch Ness
b. Nobody knows the metabolic requirements of a Loch Ness Monster
People can make some assumptions and come up with some numbers but they should not being taken as dogma.
Roland |
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| Bigfoot73 Great Old One Joined: 19 May 2009 Total posts: 1079 Location: Leeds Gender: Male |
| Posted: 23-01-2012 16:40 Post subject: |
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Do you mean the Champ photograph?
Lake Champlain is in Vermont and I'm not aware of any photo of anything found in it. I meant the photo of something draped over a dockside handcart, upright and head towards the camera - deep belly sharply tapering to the tail, short neck and a head with big nasal gear.Probably the best cryotid photo ever, and I can't find it anywhere.
One answer to the sustenance issue is that it doesn't actually live in the Loch permanently but just for short periods. Possibly its one of those creatures that goes for long periods without eating.
What it could be doing on land defeats me but there are land sightings from Norwegian fjords too. That nose doesn't sound like conventional aquatic breathing equipment. |
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| Timble2 Imaginary person Joined: 09 Feb 2003 Total posts: 7114 Location: Practically in Narnia Age: 58 Gender: Female |
| Posted: 23-01-2012 16:58 Post subject: |
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| Bigfoot73 wrote: | | ....One answer to the sustenance issue is that it doesn't actually live in the Loch permanently but just for short periods.... |
The only practicable way out of the Loch is along the River Ness to the sea, The river goes throught the centre of Inverness, I think a large cryptid would have been noticed a few times if it took that route... |
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| Bigfoot73 Great Old One Joined: 19 May 2009 Total posts: 1079 Location: Leeds Gender: Male |
| Posted: 23-01-2012 17:19 Post subject: |
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| Unless it kept its head down as it went through that teeming metropolis, or waited until it was dark. |
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| silverity Yeti Joined: 15 Sep 2011 Total posts: 33 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: 24-01-2012 00:17 Post subject: |
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| Bigfoot73 wrote: | | Unless it kept its head down as it went through that teeming metropolis, or waited until it was dark. |
I would agree. Logically if the creature lives in perpetual darkness in the peat stained waters, then it is more likely to be nocturnal in its activities.
Roland |
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| oldrover Great Old One Joined: 18 Oct 2009 Total posts: 2147 Location: Wales Gender: Male |
| Posted: 24-01-2012 19:24 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I meant the photo of something draped over a dockside handcart, upright and head towards the camera - deep belly sharply tapering to the tail, short neck and a head with big nasal gear.Probably the best cryotid photo ever, and I can't find it anywhere. |
Do you mean this;
http://darrennaish.blogspot.com/2006/09/cadborosaurus-and-naden-harbour_02.html
http://bigcitylib.blogspot.com/2011/10/cadborosaurus-update-baby-version-of.html
| Quote: | I don't think this is as big an issue as people make out especially when:
a. Nobody knows how much food is in Loch Ness
b. Nobody knows the metabolic requirements of a Loch Ness Monster
People can make some assumptions and come up with some numbers but they should not being taken as dogma. |
Dogma? There are several inescapable facts that mean the Loch Ness monster is a virtual impossibility. Firstly the Loch was formed at the end of the last Ice age, prior to that it was under the ice sheet, so there's no way anything has a history there any longer than about 10000 years.
Could anything have evolved there to fit the description of Nessie, no. The only animals there are relatively small because the access to the sea, the river Ness, is far to shallow for anything large to navigate. In parts it's very substantial but in other's it's little more than shin deep. Often as it runs through built up areas no way is anyone going to miss that. So no large animal could get access and certainly no small animal has had time to develop into what's been described.
More importantly even if there had been time why would it? What's the benefit of being a large high energy requiring predator in an area of low food availability. If you want to see a predator well suited to conditions there look at a Pike. Right size right energy requirements for the environment.
Whatever the energy requirements of a potential animal is fairly easy to work out, they'd be high. If it was a real animal it'd have to a) maintain a metabolism, b) renew, replenish and heal itself, c) have to provide energy to propel itself through the water at, if the sightings are to be believed, a decent rate.
All this without the question of how in a small area a breeding population could possibly remain undetected.
Yet again in cryptozoology it seems to me that we're dealing with an animal that needs reason and biological precedent to be discarded in order to argue for its existence. |
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| Bigfoot73 Great Old One Joined: 19 May 2009 Total posts: 1079 Location: Leeds Gender: Male |
| Posted: 24-01-2012 22:38 Post subject: |
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Caddy! Right, yes , that's the fella. Nothing like as I remember it and Darren Naish is justified in calling it unidentifiable. Suppose they chopped it up for bait after the photo was taken.
| Quote: | | so there's no way anything has a history there any longer than about 10000 years. |
There doesn't have to be. The other occupants of the Loch didn't evolve there either.
The River Ness is indeed rather substantial in places and seals don't seem to have any problem reaching Inverness, it's probably got a deep enough central channel for something big to make it's way up from the mouth to the Loch.
There may not be much to eat but that only eliminates permanent populations, not occasional visitors. Maybe every now and then a young inexperienced Nessie makes it's way up the river, finds the pickings a bit slim and heads off back down the river or tries sticking it out and dies young, and small.
Believers and sceptics alike have traditionally assumed there to be a resident population of something big in the Loch, usually held to be plesiosaurs until the recent exposure of some famous photos as hoaxes or Morris Minor bumpers. Let go of these assumptions and there is still planty of scope for cryptids in the Loch. |
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| oldrover Great Old One Joined: 18 Oct 2009 Total posts: 2147 Location: Wales Gender: Male |
| Posted: 24-01-2012 23:09 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The other occupants of the Loch didn't evolve there either. |
No but they are as I said small species capable of making their way there. Also lets remember fish get into ponds all the time without evolving there, they're carried in as eggs.
| Quote: | | it's probably got a deep enough central channel for something big to make it's way up from the mouth to the Loch. |
You're quite right I made a mistake there. There's another problem though Google the satellite view of where Loch Ness meets the river and you'll see what I mean, I'm afraid I'm not computer wise enough to link to it directly. There's nothing big getting in there for definite. Surprised that Nessie enthusiasts haven't spotted it. I'm afraid the visitor theory is gone for good.
Incidentally Inverness is open to the sea.
| Quote: | | Let go of these assumptions and there is still planty of scope for cryptids in the Loch. |
I think if you let go of those there's nothing left. |
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| Bigfoot73 Great Old One Joined: 19 May 2009 Total posts: 1079 Location: Leeds Gender: Male |
| Posted: 25-01-2012 01:17 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | There's another problem though Google the satellite view of where Loch Ness meets the river and you'll see what I mean, |
Already looked, atrocious isn't it ? Google Earth is badly in need of an update.
| Quote: | | There's nothing big getting in there for definite. |
Maybe not anything big as in bulky, but how about something with the beam and draught of a seal only a lot longer? A few years ago the Nessie hunting world was full of talk of 'horse eels', the creature with a head like that of a horse ( or dog or even giraffe) so named by the Japanese fishermen who encountered such things in the northen Pacific. The description also applies to creatures seen in the Loch, the fjords, Chesapeake Bay , even Plymouth Sound. All these locations have populations of eels, and something of those dimensions and swimming characteristics would find it easy to pursue and catch them.
| Quote: | | Incidentally Inverness is open to the sea. |
I don't think I said anything which implied I thought otherwise, nor that Nessies had legs or floatplanes . |
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| oldrover Great Old One Joined: 18 Oct 2009 Total posts: 2147 Location: Wales Gender: Male |
| Posted: 25-01-2012 21:52 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I don't think I said anything which implied I thought otherwise... |
Well when I read this;
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The River Ness is indeed rather substantial in places and seals don't seem to have any problem reaching Inverness |
I thought that's exactly what you were saying. I read it as 'the river Ness is big enough for large animals to navigate, for example seals seem to be able to reach Inverness', but are you saying I should have read it as 'the river Ness is big enough for large animals to navigate, oh and by the way there are seals on the North Sea coast? If so it doesn't seem to lend anything to the argument.
Judging by the size of the weir in relation to the surrounding buildings it seems a pretty big one so no I don't think anything approaching the girth of a seal could get up there, especially if it was a lot longer. In fact if that weir is as big as it looks then it's impossible.
I'm going up that way in the next few months, I will be stopping to measure it. |
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