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Operation Yewtree
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CochiseOffline
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PostPosted: 14-04-2014 11:32    Post subject: Operation Yewtree Reply with quote

This thread has been extracted from the now closed Jimmy Savile threads, and is for discussion regarding the wider Yewtree investigation and trials. There is a dedicated Savile thread here. Stu.

---------------

Quote is a comment on the DM article regarding the Cyril Smith allegations:

Quote:
Once again the high profile one is dead so to cover up they will probably charge a few lower ranking people with dodgy evidence who will be found not guilty and discredit the whole operation. Yet another method of having one big cover up for the active powerful people who were and no doubt ARE STILL involved. Savile is dead Cyril is dead, NO HIGH PROFILE person connected with the network who covered this up for them has been charged yet! just a few has been actors and DJ's with flimsy old evidence.


I have to say it sums up very much how I feel. The behaviour of the abusers is beyond the pale, but one can at least put it down to a perverted and uncontrollable sexual drive. They may have known they were doing wrong but have been unable to stop themselves, just like a hard drug addict who is in the last stages of self-destruction.

Those who protected them did so for political or personal gain, and can only be described as completely amoral. They need to be exposed and removed from any public or responsible office they may hold. I don't talk about charges, I'm no judge, but I don't want people with such a flawed mentality making decisions that affect other people's lives.
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Quake42Offline
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PostPosted: 14-04-2014 12:39    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The behaviour of the abusers is beyond the pale, but one can at least put it down to a perverted and uncontrollable sexual drive. They may have known they were doing wrong but have been unable to stop themselves, just like a hard drug addict who is in the last stages of self-destruction.



I'm afraid I don't buy this at all. They behaved badly because they wanted to and they thought they could get away with it. I really don't think that they were "uncontrollable" in any way, shape or form.
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OneWingedBirdOffline
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PostPosted: 14-04-2014 18:01    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You will be turned into a goat for that.


Just wait until the next time they google themselves.
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CochiseOffline
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PostPosted: 15-04-2014 04:48    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quake42 wrote:
Quote:
The behaviour of the abusers is beyond the pale, but one can at least put it down to a perverted and uncontrollable sexual drive. They may have known they were doing wrong but have been unable to stop themselves, just like a hard drug addict who is in the last stages of self-destruction.



I'm afraid I don't buy this at all. They behaved badly because they wanted to and they thought they could get away with it. I really don't think that they were "uncontrollable" in any way, shape or form.


I did say 'may'. Goodness knows how they felt, I can't imagine, and I'm not trying to defend them.

The people we are discussing clearly manufactured for themselves positions of power in which they were able callously to satisfy their urges with complete disregard for their victims - personally I'd describe that as 'out of control'.

They could not have done that - particularly it seems in the Smith case - had people not gone along with it for reasons of power, personal ego politics, whatever. So to me those enablers are an ongoing threat as long as they can make decisions affecting others, for their judgement is clearly as self-centred and psychopathic as the offenders themselves.

Edited for minor spelling error that may have been confusing.


Last edited by Cochise on 16-04-2014 09:48; edited 2 times in total
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McAvennie_Offline
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PostPosted: 15-04-2014 10:59    Post subject: Reply with quote

With all these stories now coming out and the evident political cover-ups going on to keep those with skeletons in their closet protected it makes you cast a new eye over certain other cases and the suggestions of conspiracy and cover-up that seemed so incredulous at the time.

Most notably my mind turns to the Hollie Greig case in Scotland and the claims about numerous figures in Scotland's police and political circles - and at national level too if you follow the online speculation/rumours.

Not going to name names obviously but if you Google her name and dig around you'll soon come across the connections and theories for yourself. There are equally as many sites and pages that claim her story is a hoax or a string of lies, but since all this about Saville and now Cyril Smith has come out would it really be so hard to believe her story?
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SwiftyOffline
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PostPosted: 16-04-2014 18:29    Post subject: Reply with quote

McAvennie_ wrote:
With all these stories now coming out and the evident political cover-ups going on to keep those with skeletons in their closet protected it makes you cast a new eye over certain other cases and the suggestions of conspiracy and cover-up that seemed so incredulous at the time.

Most notably my mind turns to the Hollie Greig case in Scotland and the claims about numerous figures in Scotland's police and political circles - and at national level too if you follow the online speculation/rumours.

Not going to name names obviously but if you Google her name and dig around you'll soon come across the connections and theories for yourself. There are equally as many sites and pages that claim her story is a hoax or a string of lies, but since all this about Saville and now Cyril Smith has come out would it really be so hard to believe her story?


Sometimes there is smoke without fire when it comes to sexual abuse allegations and sometimes the victim is telling the truth. I've read about some shocking cases when the accused was proven to be innocent. I don't envy the police and the Crown Prosecution Service having to make those decisions when considering which cases to take further. Sadly, there is no finite solution yet that makes this easy so we have to put all predjucices aside and only exam the evidence on each case.
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McAvennie_Offline
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PostPosted: 17-04-2014 11:38    Post subject: Reply with quote

As if we didn't suspect already, but it's not just the UK entertainment industry where this is seemingly rife.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-xmen-director-sexual-abuse-accusation-20140416,0,1551084.story

Singer has had previous trouble with a lawsuit filed regarding the film 'Apt Pupil' where a 14-year-old extra made claims about being forced to do stuff on film he wasn't particularly happy to be doing.

Sadly it is not just the cohorts in the media who are complicit in covering up for their peers, the comments sections I've read regarding this story are full of claims that it is lies, that the accuser has waited too long to speak up and that it is just the work of a corrupt lawyer out to make a quick buck. That might be the case, but it might not be and that kind of reaction can only make it harder for victims to come forward.

Cannot imagine anything worse than having had something of this nature happen and know that even if you do speak up nobody will believe you and your attacker will be protected and lauded by society.
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Quake42Offline
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PostPosted: 17-04-2014 12:04    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Sadly it is not just the cohorts in the media who are complicit in covering up for their peers, the comments sections I've read regarding this story are full of claims that it is lies, that the accuser has waited too long to speak up and that it is just the work of a corrupt lawyer out to make a quick buck. That might be the case, but it might not be and that kind of reaction can only make it harder for victims to come forward.



I think people are understandably sceptical about claims which (a) are made many years after the alleged event and (b) involve the possibility of substantial amounts of money being awarded to the complainant. What the events of the last couple of years seem to have proved beyond doubt is that:

- there without doubt been quite a few pervs in the entertainment industry
- a number of the claims involving people in the public eye are dubious at best and downright fabrications at worst.

None of us have any idea whether the claim against Singer has any substance, but I wouldn't rush to condemn him on the basis of an allegation of this nature.
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McAvennie_Offline
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PostPosted: 17-04-2014 21:38    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nope, if it was randomly selected Actor X then, yes, I'd take it with a pinch of salt. However, given that even a just a cursory Google of Singer brings up one or two previous controversies shall we say it does make you wonder. Although, of course, the celebrity target could have been selected for that very reason.

In the real world a former girlfriend confided in me about something terrible that had happened to her about a decade ago, at the time, I urger her to report it but she wouldn't because she was convinced nobody would believe her and it would be more trouble for her than just trying to forget about it.

High profile cases like these where the victim is immediately doubted and treated with suspicion do nothing to help and I suspect there are a great many people out there feeling safe in the knowledge that they will never be brought to justice because their victim does not feel it is worth the pain and struggle to be believed.

There can be all sorts of reasons why people do not speak up at the time. If it takes 5 years, 10 years even 20 years for them to find the courage to report what happened then I don't think: "Sorry, too late. Probably making it up anyway..." is really the best attitude to have.
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PeteByrdieOffline
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PostPosted: 18-04-2014 06:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

McAvennie_ wrote:
High profile cases like these where the victim is immediately doubted and treated with suspicion do nothing to help and I suspect there are a great many people out there feeling safe in the knowledge that they will never be brought to justice because their victim does not feel it is worth the pain and struggle to be believed.

There can be all sorts of reasons why people do not speak up at the time. If it takes 5 years, 10 years even 20 years for them to find the courage to report what happened then I don't think: "Sorry, too late. Probably making it up anyway..." is really the best attitude to have.


I agree, I never think it should be considered too late. And I'd hate to think celebrities who already think of themselves as somehow above the law commit such crimes and a few months down the line think they've got away with it because nothing's happened. They should live in fear that it could ruin their lives years later. The problem of whether people doubt the accusers or assume the accused is guilty is a tricky one. People seem to feel the need to make such assumptions, even if they are not in a position to. For a victim, to put him or her self through such an ordeal only to be treated as a liar must be horrific. For an innocent but accused celebrity, a life is rolling down the pan because somebody has said something that's not true, a power we're all capable of wielding. Ideally, in a perfect world, these trials would be conducted without any press coverage, in total secrecy, so the public had no chance to form an opinion until a verdict had be arrived at. I can't see that happening any time soon.
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CochiseOffline
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PostPosted: 18-04-2014 06:26    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is all very difficult. I knew my late wife had been beaten up by her former boyfriend but had not told anyone. As it happened he ultimately attacked his GP and was sectioned, later committing suicide.

I had problems with sexual advances when I was young which I'm not comfortable discussing even now.

The thing is, I'm not sure the justice system and our modern mindset is entirely the right way to go about these things , although I don't know what is.

The whole circus atmosphere that is provided by the media I find very distasteful, but on the other hand I don't think the investigations are far reaching enough. And there of course is always the problem that you shouldn't convict anyone of anything on unsupported verbal evidence. So for once I really don't know what to think.
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rynner2Online
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PostPosted: 26-04-2014 09:22    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lib Dems face 'questions' over Cyril Smith abuse claims

Liberal Democrat president Tim Farron says his party needs to answer "serious questions" about who knew that its former MP, Sir Cyril Smith, faced allegations of sexual assault.
Police are investigating allegations that the former MP for Rochdale, who died in 2010 aged 82, sexually abused boys at homes and hostels in the town.
Mr Farron said the police inquiry was the best way to deal with the claims.

The Crown Prosecution Service has said Sir Cyril should have been prosecuted.
It was alleged he raped boys at Knowl View residential school, which closed in 1992, and abused boys at the privately run Cambridge House children's care home, which closed in 1965.
He had a long association with Knowl View where he was on the management board when he was a councillor.

Sir Cyril was originally a Labour councillor in Rochdale, and later a Liberal then Liberal Democrat MP for the town from 1972 to 1992.
Mr Farron said: "The party absolutely, as the Labour Party must also... and indeed Rochdale civic society as a whole need to answer serious questions as to who knew what and when."

Last year, Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg described the allegations against Sir Cyril as shocking and appalling, and said they must be investigated "to the bitter end".
Lawyers for those who have made allegations of abuse said they were considering taking legal action against the Lib Dems.

Sir Cyril's family have said he always denied such accusations made against him when he was alive and they were saddened that allegations were now being made when he could no longer defend himself.

Allegations against Sir Cyril have been made in a new book by the current Labour MP for Rochdale, Simon Danczuk.
He claimed Sir Cyril used his position of power to sexually abuse young boys and then escape prosecution.

Mr Danczuk said previously he asked police to re-examine the case after "a number of victims came to see me and raise concerns".
Mr Danczuk claimed in 2012 there was "little doubt" that Sir Cyril raped some of his victims.

The Smith family said it would continue to co-operate with any further investigations.

Allegations about Sir Cyril's conduct were first published in 1979.
An independent review into the way Knowl View was run is due to report to Rochdale Council next month.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27166442
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PostPosted: 27-04-2014 07:08    Post subject: Reply with quote

rynner2 wrote:
Lib Dems face 'questions' over Cyril Smith abuse claims


Sir Cyril's family have said he always denied such accusations made against him when he was alive and they were saddened that allegations were now being made when he could no longer defend himself.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27166442



Private Eye released details of Smith's acts as early as 1979 - while Cyril was still alive and able to respond. He didn't respond at the time and he didn't sue either.
Since the Eye has continued to release details of Cyril Smith's activities since then, I find it hard to believe there's anyone in the then Liberal Party or the LibDems who weren't aware of the allegations against him.
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PostPosted: 27-04-2014 18:46    Post subject: Reply with quote

I heard Tony Blackburn yammering on this morning on Radio 4 about how he didnt understand how anyone could want to be in the Catholic Church with what its clergy has done to kids...

Pity he wasn't so incisive when sitting at the mike next to Jimmy, eh?
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SameOldVardoger
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PostPosted: 02-05-2014 13:03    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's Max Clifford's "exciting" day in court today.

Edit:
He got 8 years in prison.
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