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Euthanasia
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Should euthanasia be legalised
yes
51%
 51%  [ 48 ]
no
12%
 12%  [ 12 ]
in some cases
35%
 35%  [ 33 ]
Total Votes : 93

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MythopoeikaOffline
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PostPosted: 05-01-2012 23:10    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shocking as it may sound, I think anybody who wishes to do so should be given the means to self-terminate in a dignified fashion. That is to say, I think it should not be restricted to people who are terminally ill.
With the world's population expanding so fast, I think it may eventually become widely accepted, regardless of the objections of the religious people.

If this happened, I think there would be fewer people who would kill themselves in crazy ways (i.e. jumping in front of a train, jumping off a building).
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rynner2Offline
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PostPosted: 05-01-2012 23:26    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mythopoeika wrote:
Shocking as it may sound, I think anybody who wishes to do so should be given the means to self-terminate in a dignified fashion. That is to say, I think it should not be restricted to people who are terminally ill.
With the world's population expanding so fast, I think it may eventually become widely accepted, regardless of the objections of the religious people.

I quite liked the Soylent Green idea: "Roth seeks assisted suicide at a government clinic in Madison Square Garden." Very pleasant and peaceful...
But of course, in movie-land, things are not what they seem!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green
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Quake42Offline
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PostPosted: 06-01-2012 00:49    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Does nobody ever spare a thought for those who'd actually be expected to carry out active euthanasia.


I certainly don't think that medical staff with moral objections to voluntary euthanasia should be required to participate. That's not really a reason to prohibit the practice we have had legalised abortion for nearly 45 years and doctors with objections are allowed to recuse themselves from the practice. Medical staff also regularly carry out unofficial euthanasia of terminally ill people in severe pain by means of excessive doses of morphine; I don't see how legalising the practice and having proper safeguards will increase the risks.

Quote:
So to those who totally reject the idea of euthanasia I say "You're potentially condemning me to a lingering and undignified death - why?"


And ultimately this is the key argument which none of the anti-euthanasia posters on here can answer.
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Pietro_Mercurios
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PostPosted: 06-01-2012 01:48    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quake42 wrote:
...

Quote:
So to those who totally reject the idea of euthanasia I say "You're potentially condemning me to a lingering and undignified death - why?"


And ultimately this is the key argument which none of the anti-euthanasia posters on here can answer.

I am not anti-voluntary euthanasia and I'm quite offended at attempts to portray me as such. I have stated my position quite clearly, so it's interesting to see how others can still read so much into what is not there.

I do have enough experience of how things work in the real World to know that theory and practice are two very different things. Watching my mother die over the eight months after she was diagnosed with lung cancer, the last few in a hospice with her plugged into a machine that could dose her with morphine as required, right up until she finally slipped into a coma and death. Palliative care. She was frightened of dying, confused and a bit bewildered, paranoid and hallucinating due to the side effects of the opiates, but right to the end, she did not want to die.

I definitely would want to have final control over my ultimate fate, if the worst came to the worst and I have considered making out a living will to that effect, as is possible here in the Netherlands. But, that is the key problem. It's not so much the right to die with dignity that's important, it's the vital importance of ultimately having full control over one's own final destiny. It may mean having to put one's trust in professionals whose ultimate concern is in ticking the right boxes on the appropriate forms.

Still, don't worry, the NHS is in safe hands and going private is a boon. Isn't that right?
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CochiseOffline
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PostPosted: 06-01-2012 11:35    Post subject: Reply with quote

rynner2 wrote:

So to those who totally reject the idea of euthanasia I say "You're potentially condemning me to a lingering and undignified death - why?"


As I say, I don't totally reject the idea, I just see intractable difficulties (and endless profits for lawyers) in any law that expressly permits euthanasia or assisted suicide. I agree there is a problem for those who wish to end their lives but are too incapacitated to do so. (For the rest of us there's always a couple of bottles of vodka and three weeks worth of paracetamol).

But I have no idea what to do about it that would not cause bigger problems. I am a conservative (little c) at heart and I'm instinctively reluctant to change things in a way that might well make things worse instead of better except where the current system is a catastrophic failure.

As far as drugs are concerned (since someone raised it) I believe we should legalise all drugs as the current situation is indeed a catastrophic failure, but further discussion of why I think that no doubt belongs on a different topic.

Quote:
But, that is the key problem. It's not so much the right to die with dignity that's important, it's the vital importance of ultimately having full control over one's own final destiny. It may mean having to put one's trust in professionals whose ultimate concern is in ticking the right boxes on the appropriate forms.


That states the problem very well.
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Heckler20Offline
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PostPosted: 06-01-2012 12:07    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cochise wrote:
(For the rest of us there's always a couple of bottles of vodka and three weeks worth of paracetamol).


Should you wish a lingering and painful death as your liver fails then yes.
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Pietro_Mercurios
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PostPosted: 06-01-2012 12:22    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heckler20 wrote:
Cochise wrote:
(For the rest of us there's always a couple of bottles of vodka and three weeks worth of paracetamol).


Should you wish a lingering and painful death as your liver fails then yes.

Definitely one to avoid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracetamol#Overdose
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oldroverOffline
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PostPosted: 06-01-2012 20:42    Post subject: Reply with quote

Better to eat tons of tomatoes.

Quote:
it's the vital importance of ultimately having full control over one's own final destiny.


I sometimes wonder how much this plays a part in the pro argument, that somehow choosing the time and manner of death somehow makes it more bearable.

Quote:
I certainly don't think that medical staff with moral objections to voluntary euthanasia should be required to participate. That's not really a reason to prohibit the practice we have had legalised abortion for nearly 45 years and doctors with objections are allowed to recuse themselves from the practice...


True, that is a very good point and one I find almost completely persuasive. The only thing that still makes me wonder are the two positions taken by the RCN and BMA for and against respectively, why are the nurses in favour and the doctors against? I doubt that nurses are any more compassionate than doctors, and I’m not terribly convinced that all of the professional arrogance attached to the medics is justified, I suspect that the doctor’s reluctance is because they’re the ones who’ll have to make the decision.

Quote:
Medical staff also regularly carry out unofficial euthanasia of terminally ill people in severe pain by means of excessive doses of morphine; I don't see how legalising the practice and having proper safeguards will increase the risks



That's a different issue, the intent there is to control pain, it isn't euthanasia . That might sound like a hollow distinction but I don't think it is, as the intention is to end suffering not life. Ultimately I admit that’s a personal view as of course you ould equally apply that definition to euthanasia. The point is though that it is in place, recognised by law and relies on the discretion of the prescriber, and should in the case of palliative care be enough to answer this;


Quote:
Quote:
So to those who totally reject the idea of euthanasia I say "You're potentially condemning me to a lingering and undignified death - why?"


And ultimately this is the key argument which none of the anti-euthanasia posters on here can answer.


I don’t deny that this happens though, but again would we really be dealing with that issue by introducing euthanasia. We do have the means to counter symptoms like that but they aren’t always used, why? Cost and organisation. An attempt to truly deal with the issue of poor end of life care should address that rather focus on what’s really a side issue that’ll only affect a tiny proportion of sufferers.

The trouble is that euthanasia has become a personal freedom issue, and therefore an attractive cause, palliative care will never attract the same level of attention.
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Pietro_Mercurios
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PostPosted: 07-01-2012 09:57    Post subject: Reply with quote

A short, poignant and to the point, article, by Terry Pratchett, on assisted dying, from the Huffington Post UK, ed.
Quote:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/sir-terry-pratchett/terry-pratchett-assisted-suicide_b_1189366.html?ref=uk

Memo After a Day Talking to the Media About Assisted Dying

Huffington Post. Terry Pratchett. 07/01/2012

As I understand the guidelines from the Director of Public Prosecutions, a spouse or even a family friend can assist somebody to die if they act out of compassion and love as far as these can be ascertained.

Journalists seem to think this is a great concession which we should be happy with. I am not. All that is being tentatively offered means that amateurs will try to help other amateurs to die with, heaven help us, such mechanisms and drugs that they can get hold of.

Frankly this is no better than suicide itself. I know that on several occasions people have rigged up all kinds of devices and this makes my flesh creep. As a former journalist I had to deal all too often with the results of successful, but nevertheless terribly amateurish, suicides which were traumatic to the extent of making hardened police officers vomit. Surely a compassionate and caring country can do better than this?

As a society, we seem to be quite kind even to serious offenders, and one might think that the treatment of those whose only 'crime' is a disinclination to have a life at the mercy of a debilitating and unforgiving disease is somewhat mysterious.

In fact I see in this the dark hand of religion, a religion that subconsciously regards illness as a sin requiring atonement and therefore the patient is a sinner and deserving of trial by ordeal, a practice which we may have thought of as having been swept away by the Enlightenment, many years ago. In short, people who have done nothing wrong except contract an illness deserve more than a government whose bravery extends no further than to turn a blind eye.

I know a number of people that have gone to Dignitas, and have spoken to many others who have seen their loved ones go down this route, and one thing they appear to have in common is that, like good citizens they take charge of their own affairs, value their independence and think ahead. In theory this should make them in the eyes of their government model citizens.

In fact, the government of the welfare state is not very happy about citizens who take total responsibility for themselves rather than hanging from the teat of the welfare state; apparently such people must be punished.

He knows whereof he speaks.
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CochiseOffline
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PostPosted: 07-01-2012 10:41    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heckler20 wrote:
Cochise wrote:
(For the rest of us there's always a couple of bottles of vodka and three weeks worth of paracetamol).


Should you wish a lingering and painful death as your liver fails then yes.


Well, no gain without pain. Substitute for the paracetamol a hot bath and cutting your wrists. Or sleeping pills - these can be highly successful as my family knows to its cost.

The point is, if your life is, in your opinion, not worth living and you have some degree of autonomy then you can end it easily enough yourself. Too easily, sadly, because sudden deep depression (or the downward cycle of chronic depression) can end a life that still holds every opportunity.

So the issue of assisted suicide - which is what I hope we mean by euthanasia, and not the mass putting down of inconveniently expensive people - should only come up in the case of someone too ill or otherwise disabled to terminate themselves.

I think it is an error to raise religion as an issue - I think it is nothing to do with it. I think it is everything to do with the respect for human life and concern about situations arising where someone could be - inadvertantly or deliberatly - terminated against their wishes. Surely much of the same thinking - the risk of mistake - is why we do not have the death penalty and no UK government - despite the wishes of the mob - would ever reinstate it.

Terry Pratchett is an intelligent bloke and I'm sure he can work out means of doing away with himself if he so wishes - it seems to me like he wants to push the final responsibility for the act on someone else. Its a terrible position to be in, but he's hardly alone. My mother for the last two or three years of her life didn't know who any of us were, but she was living out an apparently happy fantasy of her own and dropped dead sat at table waiting for her dinner to be served. (She thought she was in an hotel in Bude as opposed to a care home in Wales. She also thought she was in her 20's and had forgotten she had ever smoked).

Was she really happy? I don't know. But she seemed to be and the nurses thought she was.

TP thinks he knows what his future holds but he doesn't really. None of us do. Still, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. However, I don't see as they have an entitlement to involve some third party in their demise. If their nearest and dearest agree with them and help them depart this vale of tears then as far as I can see the law makes allowances for that.

Quote:
In fact, the government of the welfare state is not very happy about citizens who take total responsibility for themselves rather than hanging from the teat of the welfare state; apparently such people must be punished.


I quite agree with that bit of Mr Pratchett's statement. But I don't believe it has much bearing on this particular issue. I think the risk of mistake and the slippery slope argument are much bigger influences. It would be a strange land if we didn't kill murders (edit - I mean murderers of course) because we might make a mistake but we were perfectly happy to do away with law abiding citizens where there was an equal or greater risk of mistake.


Last edited by Cochise on 10-01-2012 12:04; edited 1 time in total
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oldroverOffline
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PostPosted: 07-01-2012 12:09    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
TP thinks he knows what his future holds but he doesn't really. None of us do. Still, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. However, I don't see as they have an entitlement to involve some third party in their demise.


Well put.
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rynner2Offline
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PostPosted: 13-03-2012 08:40    Post subject: Reply with quote

'Locked-in syndrome' man to have right-to-die case heard

A paralysed man who wants a doctor to be able to lawfully end his life can proceed with his "right-to-die" case, a High Court judge has ruled.
Tony Nicklinson, 58, from Melksham, Wiltshire, has "locked-in syndrome" following a stroke in 2005 and is unable to carry out his own suicide.
He is seeking legal protection for any doctor who helps him end his life.

The Ministry of Justice argues making such a ruling would authorise murder and change the law governing it.

"Locked-in syndrome" leaves people with paralysed bodies but fully-functioning minds.
The judge's ruling now means that Mr Nicklinson's case will go to a full hearing, where medical evidence can be heard.
Following the judge's ruling that his case can proceed, Mr Nicklinson's wife Jane read out a statement from her husband on BBC 5live.

It said: "I'm delighted that the issues surrounding assisted dying are to be aired in court. Politicians and others can hardly complain with the courts providing the forum for debate if the politicians continue to ignore one of the most important topics facing our society today.
"It's no longer acceptable for 21st Century medicine to be governed by 20th Century attitudes to death
."

Mr Nicklinson, who communicates through the use of an electronic board or special computer, said before the ruling that his life was "dull, miserable, demeaning, undignified and intolerable".
During the radio interview, Mrs Nicklinson passed on questions to her husband, using his letters board to spell out his response.

When asked what he hoped would happen next, he replied: "I will be able to access a doctor when the time is right."
He went on to spell out: "I can just about cope with life at the moment, but not forever."

Mrs Nicklinson said she was "really pleased" with the judge's decision. "It's been quite stressful waiting for this decision.
"It's really good to know that the judge thinks that we have a case that needs to be argued."

Earlier, Mrs Nicklinson said that her husband "just wants to know that, when the time comes, he has a way out".
"If you knew the kind of person that he was before, life like this is unbearable for him," she added.
She said she did not know when her husband might actually want to die. "I suppose just when he can't take it any more," she said.

Mr Nicklinson has two grown-up daughters and had his stroke while on a business trip to Athens.

The High Court heard Mr Nicklinson's first statement in the proceedings, in which he said his stroke "left me paralysed below the neck and unable to speak. I need help in almost every aspect of my life."
"I cannot scratch if I itch, I cannot pick my nose if it is blocked and I can only eat if I am fed like a baby - only I won't grow out of it, unlike the baby.
"I have no privacy or dignity left. I am washed, dressed and put to bed by carers who are, after all, still strangers.

"Am I grateful that the Athens doctors saved my life? No, I am not. If I had my time again, and knew then what I know now, I would not have called the ambulance but let nature take its course."

His legal action was launched to seek court declarations that a doctor could intervene to end his "indignity" and have a "common law defence of necessity" against any murder charge.

But David Perry QC, representing the Ministry of Justice, told the High Court that Mr Nicklinson "is saying the court should positively authorise and permit as lawful the deliberate taking of his life".
He added: "That is not, and cannot be, the law of England and Wales unless Parliament were to say otherwise."

Following his ruling at the High Court, Mr Justice Charles said the case's issues "raise questions that have great social, ethical and religious significance and they are questions on which widely differing beliefs and views are held, often strongly".
He said the issues before him only related to whether Mr Nicklinson's arguments "have any real prospect of success or whether there is some other compelling reason why these proceedings should be tried".

Mr Nicklinson's solicitor, Saimo Chahl, said the next step was for the courts to examine "in great detail what the individual circumstances of the case are before authorising any steps to be taken".
"It would all be extremely carefully controlled and vetted before any doctor were given permission - were we to be successful.
"And you have to bear in mind actually that this is a case which is likely to go further, which is likely to end up in the Supreme Court one way or another, before the law is changed."

"Right-to-die" campaigner Debbie Purdy, who has severe multiple sclerosis, said Mr Nicklinson was an intelligent, vibrant man who should be able to make his own choices.
She said he was not asking to die "tomorrow" but to improve the quality of the life he's living at the moment by "knowing that if it becomes too much for him, he will be able to... to end it".

BBC legal correspondent Clive Coleman said the case went beyond assisted suicide as Mr Nicklinson's paralysis is so severe it would prevent him from receiving assistance to kill himself and he would have to be killed - and that would amount to murder.

He said Mr Nicklinson was seeking a court declaration based on his right to respect for private life under Article 8 of the Human Rights Convention - in effect saying that in his circumstances, his right to life included the right to end his life in a humane manner of his choosing.

---------------------

Analysis
Clive Coleman, BBC News

Tony Nicklinson's case goes to the heart of the conflict between the sanctity of life and an individual's right to self-determination in ending it.

The law currently draws a crucial distinction between doctors deciding not to provide or continue treatment, which might prolong life, and acting to end a life, by for example administering lethal drugs.
Whilst the former may be lawful, the latter is murder and Mr Justice Charles said Mr Nicklinson was inviting the court to "cross the rubicon".

Mr Nicklinson's case is not one of assisted suicide, like that of the multiple sclerosis sufferer Debbie Purdy who won a clarification of prosecuting policy where a loved one assists a person to die.

His paralysis is so severe that he cannot be assisted in taking his own life, for instance by swallowing lethal drugs. He would have to be killed by someone else.
He is seeking a court declaration that a doctor who ended his life would have a defence of "necessity" to any murder charge.

"Necessity" was argued in the case of two conjoined twins when doctors, faced with the choice of losing two lives or saving one, separated the pair.

Mr Nicklinson's case is a leap on from there. Here doctors would be acting to end a single life. That would open the way to voluntary active euthanasia, and is a step too far for many.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17336774
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rynner2Offline
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PostPosted: 27-03-2012 08:06    Post subject: Reply with quote

MPs to debate assisted dying laws

MPs are to debate whether the law on assisted dying needs to change to take into account recent changes to the way prosecutions are handled.
Rules brought in by the director of public prosecutions in 2010 must either enter fully into law or be thrown out, Tory MP Richard Ottaway argues.
Assisting a suicide is illegal and the issue is highly controversial.

The Commons Backbench Business Committee allowed the debate, which is due to start at about 13:30 BST.
It is the first time the House has discussed the law on assisted dying for more than 10 years.

The existing rules are the result of a case brought by Debbie Purdy, a terminally ill woman, who in 2009 won a ruling from the Law Lords requiring the director of public prosecutions (DPP) to set out whether her husband would be committing an offence if he accompanied her to the Swiss assisted-suicide organisation Dignitas to end her life.

In 2010, the DPP produced guidance to prosecutors on cases where someone had encouraged or assisted suicide, listing factors which should weigh for or against prosecuting.
Mr Ottaway argues that the guidelines more or less amount to law - but that such a change must be decided either by Parliament or judges.

In January, the Commission on Assisted Dying - set up and funded by campaigners who want to see a change in the law - said there was a "strong case" for allowing assisted suicide for people who are terminally ill in England and Wales.
But the report had a mixed response, with critics calling it biased.

The government indicated there were no plans to change the law.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17516998
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PostPosted: 28-03-2012 18:22    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Doctor convicted of 'mercy killing' worked for police

(apologies for a stupid eadline which doesn't refer to the main points as I see them)

The medic, who qualified as a doctor in Argentina and now lives in Spain, has not appeared for the hearing before the GMC's Fitness to Practise panel and is not represented by lawyers.

He is accused of misconduct and dishonesty because he hid the investigation and his conviction from the GMC and employers. Dr Hourmann also broke medical rules by failing to inform the GMC. Currently suspended, he may now be struck-off the medical register by the GMC.

"This case involves two aspects, firstly Dr Hourmann's convictions and secondly his misconduct in not revealing anything about the original incident or about being investigated, charged or ultimately convicted in relation to it. Nothing was revealed or disclosed to the regulatory body or employers for whom he started work in the UK.

– ALAN TAYLOR, COUNSEL FOR THE GMC
The GMC heard that on March 28 2005 Dr Hourmann was working at the Mora D'Ebre district hospital in Tarragona, Spain, when an 82-year-old "extremely ill" cancer patient, referred to only as CR, was admitted. The patient had advanced cancer of the colon and internal haemorrhaging and her family consented to her treatment by Dr Hourmann for "sedative and palliative" care.

Mr Taylor, reading from the Spanish court papers, said the patient was "begging for her suffering to be brought to an end" and Dr Hourmann may have thought, incorrectly, "she was begging him to end her life".


http://www.itv.com/news/wales/2012-03-28/doctor-convicted-of-mercy-killing-in-spain-later-got-police-job/

Sad case this, no suggestion that the doctor was anything other than a kind and properly motivated man. Second issue about him keeping quiet; understandable?

Either way does he deserve to loose his career?
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rynner2Offline
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PostPosted: 02-05-2012 08:01    Post subject: Reply with quote

'Living wills' need to be completely clear, rules judge
'Living wills' that stipulate exactly how a person wants to die should be drawn up with absolute clarity, a judge has ruled after concluding a 67-year-old man with motor neurone disease had made a "valid decision" to refuse treatment.
By Stephen Adams, Medical Correspondent
6:39PM BST 01 May 2012

The man, referred to in court only as XB, communicated his desires with relatives and lawyers through eye movements on a number of occasions.
Last November, documentation of the "advance decision", as living wills are now called, was drawn up in front of witnesses, including his wife, a doctor, a social worker and a carer.

However, another carer questioned whether XB had actually "communicated his agreement" and thereby given consent, the Court of Protection heard.
Consequently the carer's employer, an NHS trust, applied to the court to ask for clarification on the matter. It is the first such case to come before the court, part of the High Court.

After hearing evidence, Mrs Justice Theis said she was "entirely satisfied" that the man had the capacity to make the decision himself.
She told relatives: "I hope the next stage proceeds as well as can be expected."

But she emphasised that total clarity was needed when advance decision documents were drawn up, and said health authorities should investigate any issues about the validity of advance decisions as a "matter of urgency".

During the two-day hearing, XB's wife said he "wanted to be allowed to peacefully end his life", after suffering from motor neurone disease for a decade.
The condition attacks the nerves in the brain and spinal cord, progressively stripping a person of their physical abilities, leaving them wheelchair-bound and eventually total paralysed.

The man's wife had found a template for an advance decision on the internet.
She said the question of "what life-sustaining treatment he would receive" had been discussed with him a number of times in 2010 and in 2011 he had indicated that he wished such treatment to be withdrawn.

Lawyers also determined that the carer who raised concerns was not present in the room when the advance decision was agreed.

Yogi Amin, a partner at law firm Irwin Mitchell, which represented the family, said: "The law allows a person to prepare an advance healthcare decision to refuse life-sustaining treatment at a future date.
"This case illustrates the importance of preparing the advance decision document properly and carefully."

Mr Amin described XB as a "proud and intelligent man" from the south of England. He said his condition had now deteriorated to the point where "he can no longer confirm his needs".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9239559/Living-wills-need-to-be-completely-clear-rules-judge.html
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